Star Trek Picard and Trek Taking on Modern Politics

[Yukaphile]

I mean, early Star Trek was in some ways a product of its time, more than once, and to an uncomfortable degree, but at the end of the day, many of the stories still hold up. MANY of them. I think politics in Star Trek, as in all sci-fi, should be timeless, and not rooted to the contemporary issues of our day. They need to speak more to general human issues. Like, SF Debris discussed this in "Homefront/Paradise Lost," but imagine if DS9 had somehow been delayed, and the same stories were told? Only, that two-parter came after 9/11? Let's visit that parallel universe for a while. Do you REALLY think it would stay the same there? In my mind, I think it would conform to something new that ruins what had made it special. For example, throughout the WHOLE series, Kira's position as a terrorist, the somewhat romanticized view of terrorists shown on DS9, and that they're a spiritual people, would be completely dropped. You'd be getting new stories of the awful atrocities committed by the Bajorans, perhaps even in the name of the Prophets, and while I found Kira's extreme views off-putting and distasteful at times, the collective-guilt shaming of the Bajorans, I still think such an attempt would strip DS9 of what had made it great. What do you think, clearspira?

[Antiboyscout]

4:52 If you doubt how left wing the man really is


youtu.be/02ahebVLC_o

[TGLS]

For example, throughout the WHOLE series, Kira's position as a terrorist,

I'll just address this one first. Let's suppose a global superpower, backing a fragile faraway government is engaging in a counterinsurgency. Their opponents have backing of a slave holding aristocracy and strongly condemn the superpowers efforts to protect minorities in the region. Their opponents fancy themselves defenders of freedom against an oppressive force interested in enriching themselves more than addressing their concerns. Who are the good guys here?

Knowing you Yuka, I'm willing to bet it's the global superpower. Congratulations, you're a Tory who sided with the British.

Your Terrorists are Our Freedom Fighters is a trope for a reason, as most insurgencies are a grey, multifaceted affair. Even though the Cardassians are basically Nazis, there still is at least some grey on the Bajoran side. A hypothetical post-9/11 DS9 would probably be more critical of the Bajoran Resistance, but it's not as if no one would accept "Sometimes Violence is Necessary" message today.

[Yukaphile]

I really don't get what you're trying to say, given I admit to being "slow." I freely admit the occupation had to stop near the end, but at the same time, Bajoran Resistance were fanatics, period. They blew up their own and ANYONE who did not fit the extremely narrow definition of what a "true" Bajoran is, was a collaborator and thus a legitimate target. No doubt it was too easy for the Cardassians to spin that into an example of extremism that would turn off people in the middle. No, sometimes you gotta do the hard thing. But we have very little evidence to how the occupation started. We only hear about it after the fact. And given the way the Cardassians rewrite history AND that the Bajorans at times tend to remove anything from their history books that looks bad (I mean, Kai Winn demanding they teach the Bajoran version of creationism could fall under this category, since it is suppressing freedom of thought and truth), we have no way of knowing what is true and is not past supplementary material that is no longer canon anyway. You can bet those in charge NOW will paint it as if they just invaded, end of story. But it is said the Bajorans welcomed them, perhaps for a chance to develop their culture, but then, lots of conquered nations have been the same through history.

I also think it's good that DS9 predates 9/11, since my overall damned fucking point was that it would warp what made it great, which is timeless political messages, that are not dragged down by the pettiness of the present (like how political issues fade with time). This is what others have said. You can bet those in charge now will be utterly hamfisted in the approach. Because we CAN'T have a subtle story, can we? No, no, no, no. And Hollywood is utterly dominated by the left, so there's no way they can paint people we disagree with as three-dimensional characters. No, smug ahead full! And I want to add this. I sometimes wonder in an angry moment if perhaps we'd have been better off phasing out slavery over time. You CAN'T beat or rape or kill somebody into the path to peace, it has to be achieved through understanding, which requires time and social reform. No, the way the slave masters treated them is AWFUL. I don't deny that. And it might have taken centuries to abolish it completely. But I have to wonder, if it had been done that way, then perhaps would the world be better in some ways? Revolutions cause massive change, and lead to something good, sometimes, but they also have a push-back effect that leaves behind something worse, unresolved issues that build over time, like an echo. The sins of the past still haunt us in the present and we just CAN'T work to build a better future. We still cling to tribal hatreds. It's sad.

[Al-1701]

The thing is, the French Resistance were not nice people. They would hunt down collaborators and death was for when they were in a good mood. However, because they were on our side and the collaborators were helping the Nazis do terrible things to France and its people, these things were overlooked.

DS9 wanted to show that freedom fighting is a gray area where you will be called upon to do terrible things and sometimes you have no choice but to match the oppressors terror for terror.

Anyway, I saw some more news on the series, particularly an interview with Ryan about Seven's character who happens to be a freedom fighter. Apparently, the last couple decades have not been kind to the Alpha Quadrant in general, and some of the blame is seen to fall on Starfleet. Color me intrigued. I will admit they could crash and burn, but at the very least this has the appeal of a bad car accident.

[Yukaphile]

Oh please don't hold up the French Resistance. If anything, remember that dude from Season 2 DS9? He was spit on, and yet I believe him when he said he and those in charge were TRYING to make things better. I think I stand by my statement. The Bajoran Resistance were fanatics. Don't you dare try to defend it. And in the end, the French Resistance and even the German Resistance at the heartland was proven moot. It wasn't undermining the system within that stopped "the Empire of Evil." It was a long, drawn-out military campaign. The barbarians at the gates.

[Riedquat]

Your Terrorists are Our Freedom Fighters is a trope for a reason, as most insurgencies are a grey, multifaceted affair.

It's not a very good trope though, it's an example of people trying to shove things into a one or the other pigeonhole, assuming they're either opposites or different examples of the same thing. Freedom fighters vs. terrorists is neither, freedom fighter is a motive, terrorism a method.

[Enterprising]

All signs based on trailers indicate that Picard takes place in prime timeline. Not in Kelvinverse. What is basis for this speculation that it might not take place in Prime time line? Also I find it strange that there are people that want something to fail before it's even out. I mean why not want something to be good and successful instead.

"Prime" IS the Kelvinverse, that's what I've been trying to say. Prime is the universe that's jumpstarts the 2009 movie, it's an attempted clever wordplay by those who re-booted Star Trek, as a means to try and fool classic Star Trek fans this is still "real" Star Trek, it isn't. Spock "Prime" is not the Spock we know and love from 1964 to 1991, it's the one from 2009 who launches the red matter thingy into the magic supernova that figured out how to destroy multiple solar systems.

Classic Star Trek is a universe where a supernova only destroys the solar system of its origin.

[Thebestoftherest]

I do think Trek would be best without Kurtsman.

[Yukaphile]

Prime Timeline is just a brand label. Now, they may be attempting to return to the world we left in 2001, but honestly, I could see why clearspira is skeptical. Past the issues of corporate obstruction that might get in the way, there is every reason to be cautious since the old guard is gone. Patrick Stewart, while a fine performer alongside others such as Avery Brooks and more, did not MAKE Star Trek great. That was the writers, and other members of the team. If anything, I see indications the writing team is probably weaker than it was back then. There is a lot more wriggle room with a sequel premise than a prequel, which has been beaten into the ground to milk the last penny out of this cash cow, but even with that, I think the show is going to noticeably struggle to get off the ground. Which was acceptable in the 1980s, but is something you'd think they should be past now in the wake Babylon 5, the Trek spin-offs, Doctor Who, and many others like Stargate, and so forth. Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it, and DISCO seemed to prove they hadn't learned from their mistakes. But then... tbf, that really could have been their attempts to shoehorn in a Kelvin verse show with the Prime label slapped onto it. Nothing will convince me otherwise, since it is what the crew and people in the industry today had recently had the most experience with. Picard series genuinely strikes me as if, "Okay, we're sorry, here's the actual story you wanted!"

That said, their attempts to address political issues here is downright frightening given what they have already done to the Klingons, and no, I am not hammering on the same old issues. I'm talking about giving them a quintessentially Trumpian slogan while those in charge wave off criticism calling them "tribal African people" or something. These are leftists saying that, REALLY?! Star Trek's politics need to be timeless, which is why I brought up 9/11 in regards to DS9. When Picard was battling for civil rights with Admiral Satie, it was framed as such that both left and right can enjoy it on their own terms. Those in charge back then knew you couldn't go whole hog on the leftist political views. They were smart. Now, it just feels like any criticism that will be leveled at them will be dismissed as "right wing hate." It shows zero tolerance for those who need it most, people you disagree with, and that was supposed to be Trek's ultimate message! I'm center left, I voted Democrat for the longest time, and I'm sympathetic to women and minorities. I would love my first to be a black woman, no joke. And I would be the one criticizing them over this! That is how they drive away the fans and set them further along the dark path they have a hand in engineering. It's sad. Because we've seen how this plays with out with Star Wars, and while it has a bigger audience than Trek does, that Trek is more niche opens up a lot more possibilities in fandom, none of them appealing...