Which moment, for you, broke the Star Trek lore/continuity?

[Yukaphile]

@clearspira That's a two-edged sword. It can be used to sneer at and wave aside changes you don't like. Believe me, I've been there.

[clearspira]

The premiere of Enterprise. The Klingon Homeworld is only 5? days from Earth via warp 5.

Berman!!!!!! using VOY, 70,000 light years takes 70 years. so about 3 light-years per day in VOY era. So that means at the farthest, Q'Onos is 15 light years away. Astronomers have charted every star within that distance for a long time.

And also the premiere/Klingon first contact was totally not like anything I imagined----as Picard had that line in the episode "First Contact" about the messed up Klington-Federation first encounter.

...which kinda sounded a lot like the Earth-Minbari first encounter from Babylon 5.

And the Vulcans already knew everything about the Klingons but chose not to tell humans-----huh? that plot point made no sense.

Also in hindsight, building a warp 1 spaceship out of a derelict missile silo in the middle of a refugee camp makes no sense.

In regards to the warp speed scale, ENT uses the TOS scale which is different to the post TNG scale. (I don't know what STD uses, it SHOULD be the TOS scale, but well...) That's why you have speeds of warp 13 etc. in TOS whereas later on that speed would be beyond infinite speed.

The TOS scale is based on a geometric progression, where the speed of a vessel (measured in multiples of c, the speed of light) is equal to the cube of the given warp factor. So for example, warp 1 was the speed of light, warp 5 is 125 times the speed of light.

The TNG scale on the other hand is based on the amount of power required to reach each warp factor rather than denoting the actual speed, so whilst warp 1 is still the speed of light, warp 5 is warp 5 only because it requires whatever that amount of power happens to be. So in this case, warp 5 is 213 times the speed of light which is roughly the old warp 6.

In the TOS scale, warp 10 is 1000 times the speed of light. On the VOY scale, warp 9.9 (which is Voyager's realistic top speed given how 9.975 seems to break the ship whenever it goes that fast) is 7912 times the speed of light which just goes to show just how huge the relative differences are the faster you go.

Oh, and one more thing about the 75,000 figure: that is based on an unrealistic ''straight-line'' course of nothing but 24/7 travelling and by going straight through the centre of the galaxy and tangling with the Great Barrier/black hole/big floating heads, which is not something Voyager is capable of doing as it has neither the power nor the fuel. They just keep using that figure because the producers think we are idiots, as was the fact that realistically Voyager should have entered either the Beta or Gamma Quadrant at some point. Voyager's journey back home without outside aid was not 75 years, it probably a 100 at least.

Basically... you have to be a huge f-king nerd like me to actually know any of this

[clearspira]

@clearspira That's a two-edged sword. It can be used to sneer at and wave aside changes you don't like. Believe me, I've been there.

Me too

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm gonna go with Insurrection because it was a bad followup to First Contact.

Temporally it works because that's around the point that people were kind of fed up with Voyager meandering with the old TOS formula.

I have a feeling that Voyager is the visioned execution of what TNG was supposed to be on the outset with season 1. Janeway seems just about as disconnected as Picard was in the first seasons, and she makes it work better. I'm sure there's other examples I can think of.

[McAvoy]

I'm gonna go with Insurrection because it was a bad followup to First Contact.

Temporally it works because that's around the point that people were kind of fed up with Voyager meandering with the old TOS formula.

I have a feeling that Voyager is the visioned execution of what TNG was supposed to be on the outset with season 1. Janeway seems just about as disconnected as Picard was in the first seasons, and she makes it work better. I'm sure there's other examples I can think of.

I think that's about the time period where Trek was going downhill, quality and popularity wise.

You could also argue DS9 being the breaking point since it diverges so much from TNG or TOS. Diverges from Gene's vision.

You could also argue Voyager as well. Being TNG lite, episodic by nature and never fully embracing 'far from home' and having two different crews on board.

[Yukaphile]

Well, Berman is kinda set in his ways like Gene was, so yeah. I think Voyager was kinda what they'd wanted for TNG all along.

[PerrySimm]

You look back and you realize that Star Trek has actually been through this a lot. Close to *every* single time something new comes out, actually.

Once upon a time, there was a cadre of the fandom who liked the TOS Klingons. They got their cosplay all together looking sharp what with the frilly gold and all. And then the movie Klingons came out with the leather, scraggly hair, and headpieces. To those original fans, everything about the samurai mafia Klingon Empire on Qo'nos, is bunk! Klingons are still space commies from Planet Kling.

With all the changes they're doing for NuTrek/Disco/Picccccccard, we're already seeing more and more Cafeteria Trekkies, who approve of maybe a little bit of the new stuff that comes out here and there, but aren't deeply attached anymore.

[McAvoy]

Well, Berman is kinda set in his ways like Gene was, so yeah. I think Voyager was kinda what they'd wanted for TNG all along.

Honestly I felt he just didn't want to rock the boat on what he felt worked. TNG ended so VOY happens in a year or so and ends up continuing where it left off.

Problem was that Voyager had both TNG and DS9 establish story elements that should have been important to Voyager. That storyline was barely touched on after the first season.

I won't touch on the whole ship far from home, should not look as immaculate as she did. That has been done.

Voyager was showing the 'old guard' was running on fumes. Enterprise just showed they were out and looking for ways to jump start it again.

[Beastro]

Why can't the Greek gods be aliens? Stargate did much worse than that.

The Trekverse stopped being ''our'' universe the moment we hit the 1970s and Starling replaced Microsoft. Or if you want to ignore ''Voyager'', the 1990s when we had the Augment wars and were sending off interstellar DY-100 sleeper ships and had cryogenic satellites in orbit. It certainly isn't our world now considering we have an exact date for the Sanctuary Districts and WW3 (this decade if you're interested). So what if they change things so that it no longer fits with ''our'' history?

There's nothing about keeping things with our timeline or anything to my point. The issue isn't what it changes, but the fact that change is very clearly left out as are many of the other episodes with silly bits to them that would have dampened the world building that came with the TNG era.

The Eugenics Wars and other bits were carried forward and clearly integrated into the back history of Earth. Trek has done a good job of trying to go with their own divergent points without trying to update them compared to other Sci-Fi which keeps both things current, like Stargate.

[Yukaphile]

@PerrySimm Because early TNG was all we had, and it sucked! Some felt DS9 was "betraying Gene's vision" even though the degree to which he helped make Trek a success was minor. Nowadays, there is NO excuse for that. Given the Internet, wikis, and all the tools available for research and interacting with fans. JMS proved this, and no one learned. No, it strikes me as the same lazy corporate practices that nod with the view, "Let's just keep milking this cow till we can't anymore." Or perhaps Star Trek merely belongs to the hard leftists now, who want to challenge contemporary politics, not timeless human issues with allegory so that it is all-inclusive? TNG would never have succeeded that way. As a center leftist, that offends me.