Nerdy Deep Dive: Order 66

[hammerofglass]

The problem with using the UN definition is that it was deliberately written to be easy to apply or not apply as is politically convenient. There's always some niggling technicality for why this or that particular act is not officially genocide... unless you were already planning to intervene.

[LittleRaven]

What happening exactly are you refering to here?

Total southern casualties during the war. We're NOT talking about just civilians because civilians don't factor into Order 66 at all. There ARE no Jedi civilians. Even the Younglings would be defined as 'enemy combatants' by any military.

Remember, TGLS is putting forward the argument that the slaughter of the Jedi was a genocide because it killed the national character of the Galactic Republic. I am countering by saying that the Jedi were a very, very, VERY infinitesimally tiny part of the Republic, and that we don't really call something a national genocide unless a hefty portion of the population is killed. At the risk of repeating myself, after WW II, the allies hung a couple of hundred German leaders and officers. This represented a tiny fraction of the German population at the time, but a much MUCH larger share of German population than the Jedi represented of the Republic's population. No sane person would call the post-war trials a genocide of the German nation - we killed less than a thousandith of a percent of the population after all. But when Palpatine wiped out the Jedi, he killed less than 1 ten millionth of a percent. I realize it was an important bit of the population....but still, that's the equivalent of saying that killing the President would represent a genocide of the American nation - which is preposterous. Even if you killed everyone in Washington, DC - all 6 million of em, almost 2% of the American population along with our ENTIRE national government - that wouldn't be a genocide. America would still exist - it would just be really, REALLY pissed off. If your nation state is completely dependent upon 10000 people to survive...you have one weak-ass nation.

The problem with using the UN definition is that it was deliberately written to be easy to apply or not apply as is politically convenient.

You ain't wrong. I'm sure no small amount of effort went into that crafting. But still, they seemed like the best authority to go with.

And besides, nerdy pedantry was always the goal, so if you'd like to use a different definition....I'm down.

[Madner Kami]

What happening exactly are you refering to here?

Total southern casualties during the war.

That's bullshit for various reasons. TGLS pointed out some and I'll simply hint at your rather transparent attempt at constructing a genocidal intent on the Union's actions.

[LittleRaven]

That's bullshit for various reasons. TGLS pointed out some and I'll simply hint at your rather transparent attempt at constructing a genocidal intent on the Union's actions.

Madi....I'm not saying the Union was genocidal. I'm saying the EXACT OPPOSITE. No sane person would consider what the Union did a genocide....and what the Union did to the South was much, MUCH worse than what Palpatine did to the Republic. (when he massacred the Jedi, anyway. Presumably he did a lot more to the Republic later.)

Remember, we're talking about Jedi, not real life.

[TGLS]

To be fair, the Katyn Massacre was about 0.06% of the population of Poland at the time.

--

1) Scale.

2) Timeline

These two things pretty much fold together. I agree with you about what you said about the scale. The problem is that it makes no sense that a population of several trillion to be overseen by only a ten thousand Peacekeepers, at least some of whom are librarians or what have you. The scaling is all wrong. On the timeline front, the Empire lasts all of 23 years before collapsing. 19 years pass before the "last remnants" of the Republic are swept away. Whatever Palpatine did, he got to it quick, probably to the point that the Jedi Purge was probably the start of a series of events.

With regard to the Armed Forces argument, there are two key things to keep in mind. One, the Jedi seem to be (at least to me), the officer corps of the entire clone army, who all share the same species because they're clones. If for argument's sake, if the US Army robot soldiers instead of an enlisted staff, few would argue the US Army was mostly robot.

Two, who was responsible for the Clone Army? Palpatine. In the short four years or so, the Clones were introduced, and then the Jedi were eliminated. Odd coincidence there.

[Simplicius]

It was a horrific mass killing, engineered to eliminate a specific social group from the galaxy. This included the killing of children.

Whether or not it constitutes "genocide", according to a definition that was purposefully crafted to avoid opposition from murderous regimes, such as the Soviet Union, such that it had rule "political groups" as somehow uniquely undeserving of protection, is not something worth considering. An Empire sympathiser would obviously assert that the Jedi constituted a "political group", whereas a Republic sympathiser would assert that the Jedi constituted a "religious group".

Being a "religious" organisation does not preclude it from being an arm of the government (see, for example, The Church of England), by the way. As far as the notion that Jedi children do not constitute civilians, this is a complete and utter misunderstanding (or, perhaps, purposeful misrepresentation) of the term.

MMA fighters are civilians, as are fencers, martial artists, survivalists, hunters, parsons and so on. The fact that they could be dangerous is neither here nor there. Per the dictionary definition, a civilian is "a person who is not a member of the police, the armed forces, or a fire department".

[Robovski]

Jedi are also Republic Generals when the order is issued. Before that they functioned as a police force within the Republic government. They are not civilians.

[Riedquat]

Jedi are also Republic Generals when the order is issued. Before that they functioned as a police force within the Republic government. They are not civilians.

The ones we see aren't. Do we know enough about them to say for certain that they don't just have some non-civilian branches?

[Zatman]

I would just say that we have nothing like the Jedi in the modern world and thus comparisons are quite hard. As another posted posited a while back, the Jedi do not practice intangible faith (to outsiders, I consider my personal faith to be very tangible, but someone who doesn't believe as I do, would not). Meaning the effects of the force are real. You can't exactly deny a battle droid being hurled across a battlefield by a gesture. While they have many qualities of religious groups, they were an armed arm of the Republic, in some ways intended to be those who watch the watchers. But the Republic was not a theocracy founded in the force. To anyone not force-sensitive, the force is just a tool in a way, individuals using it are little more than advisors with really good talent.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I think that the jedi do adhere to a religion, and that intangible faith isn't necessary for a religion.

I think genocide has to do with killing people because of their identity whereas the Jedi were targeted because of their provision of security. Order 66 is just as much a coup d'état.