What is your Favorite Flawed Classics?

[Rodan56]

I didn't have much of a problem with Ryder but I did with Sam. And I'm afraid I'm not a massive Peebee fan - I wasn't much bothered with her until her mission, where she crossed the line by far too much with the escape pod. That was driving down a busy road after several drinks level of recklessness.

I liked Vetra though.

Her being reckless is the point, she jumps into things with little thought or preperation. She has very A to B thinking. If it's taking too long to land, we'll just drop to the surface in this pod. And if it gets her kicked off the Tempest so be it, she is expecting at this point she's going to be abandoned at some point anyway, so she's always waiting to be booted out.

It's a character flaw, yes. But flaws are not bad, flaws make them more complete. It's entirely in character for her to do this. If we start complaining about decisions characters make because they're imperfect decisions we might as well hate a whole ton of characters in these games. Where was the level of hate for Zaeed when he did something even more reckless than Peebee in his loyalty mission? Yet he's a beloved favorite and Peebee is apparently scum because she wanted to get to an artifact faster.

[hammerofglass]

My question is where did you get useless, entitled and daddy got them an important job?
I felt a story/game play segregation when you had to be told to and how to use your scanner. But that was tutorial mode effectively. Both Ryders had served but had their careers cut short as their names were tarnished by their father's actions. And most of the dialog choices I had showed someone unsure they should have the job. (But shouldn't that have gone to Cora? Springs to mind.)

Like I said, I played it once at release. That's the impression I'm left with years later. Everything about them rubbed me the wrong way and brings out my inner bitter old man wondering "who let this fucking kid in here?". It's like anti-charisma; I can believe people would follow Shepard into hell, but my suspension of disbelief shatters at the idea of people willingly following Ryder to get lunch.

[Riedquat]

Her being reckless is the point, she jumps into things with little thought or preperation. She has very A to B thinking. If it's taking too long to land, we'll just drop to the surface in this pod. And if it gets her kicked off the Tempest so be it, she is expecting at this point she's going to be abandoned at some point anyway, so she's always waiting to be booted out.

And dragging someone else in to it? Yes, it might be the way she is but would you say the same about someone who's just had a skinful and gets into his car?

It's a character flaw, yes. But flaws are not bad, flaws make them more complete. It's entirely in character for her to do this. If we start complaining about decisions characters make because they're imperfect decisions we might as well hate a whole ton of characters in these games. Where was the level of hate for Zaeed when he did something even more reckless than Peebee in his loyalty mission? Yet he's a beloved favorite and Peebee is apparently scum because she wanted to get to an artifact faster.

And my Shepard and Zaeed most certainly did not see eye to eye over that.

Flaws can make a character more interesting and more realistic, you can have a flawed character who's good as a character but awful as a person. And someone who impulsively puts those around them at considerable risk is an awful person (and this is coming from someone who thinks he lives in a society that's risk-averse to the point of ludicrousness).

I didn't mind Peebee up until that point, but that's when she crossed the line.

[Rodan56]

It's a game, I didn't particularly care that we ended up getting launched towards the planet rather than slowly land on it. I honestly think people have overblown that scene to a degree that is fairly ridiculous and is honestly no worse than a number of other characters in previous games. Besides, in the end, Peebee turned out to be right. If you wait to find a landing site, you'd have failed your mission.

So there, I feel Peebee did no worse than some of the more reckless members of Shepard's crew. And acting like that makes her a bad person, not taking her personality, her character flaws, her various personal issues as to why she takes these decisions into account is ignoring what makes her special. It's saying we should hate a character for not being perfect in a game about people who are imperfect but called upon to do something greater than themselves.

I'm sorry, but the escape pod scene is really not that terrible or a line crossing. It's overblown and overexaggerated in terms of what happens in it. I've always seen people who get pissed over it and decry Peebee as a horrible person as a result of it as overreacting and imposing petty gripes for a character making one particularly reckless decision.

So in short, calling her an awful person for a singular instance of taking a crazy risk in a moment of impulse is too far by my standards and you are missing out on what makes her a great character and a great person as a result. It is a woefully inadequate analysis of her character and the lowest form of analysis to say "This person is awful because she does something I didn't like." It has no substance to the complaint, it's just writing off and dismissing the character entirely based on a singular event.

If I thought like you, I'd write Tali off for being a robo-racist. So no, Peebee is not an awful person because she wanted to get down to a planet faster. She is impulsive and thinks in a fairly straight forward manner, but she is not a terrible person for making a mistake.

[Riedquat]

Tali changes here mind (or can do anyway).

Sheer recklessness with an attempt to justify it using the end justifies the means doesn't cut it. If she'd just up front said "we need to get down there now and this is the only way that'll do it, yes, I know it's bloody dangerous" it would be a completely different kettle of fish. There are right ways and wrong ways of handling situations like that, Peebee's is indefencibly wrong.

[Nealithi]

My question is where did you get useless, entitled and daddy got them an important job?
I felt a story/game play segregation when you had to be told to and how to use your scanner. But that was tutorial mode effectively. Both Ryders had served but had their careers cut short as their names were tarnished by their father's actions. And most of the dialog choices I had showed someone unsure they should have the job. (But shouldn't that have gone to Cora? Springs to mind.)

Like I said, I played it once at release. That's the impression I'm left with years later. Everything about them rubbed me the wrong way and brings out my inner bitter old man wondering "who let this fucking kid in here?". It's like anti-charisma; I can believe people would follow Shepard into hell, but my suspension of disbelief shatters at the idea of people willingly following Ryder to get lunch.

Well uncomfortable in command was actually an issue for the character. You are in charge over Liam because, it is Liam I don't think I need go further there. But follow rules laid out and orders of the commander. Your father in that instance. Doing as he commanded. When you wake in the SAM bay you even get to comment/ask that isn't the job supposed to be Cora's. Meaning Ryder was never expecting to be the leader and wasn't given a gift by daddy. But had a huge job and expectations dropped on them. First shipboard meeting everyone talks around Ryder and dismisses themselves and Ryder even notes how weak they came out. Next meeting they began putting their foot down. It was growth for a character that while they had a background was not the decorated special forces character like Shepard. As was mentioned back when it came out. Following your father on the first world. Was like playing as one of Shepard's squadmates. Trying to catch up with the powerhouse.
So it was a new perspective. And a touch refreshing I thought.

[hammerofglass]

My question is where did you get useless, entitled and daddy got them an important job?
I felt a story/game play segregation when you had to be told to and how to use your scanner. But that was tutorial mode effectively. Both Ryders had served but had their careers cut short as their names were tarnished by their father's actions. And most of the dialog choices I had showed someone unsure they should have the job. (But shouldn't that have gone to Cora? Springs to mind.)

Like I said, I played it once at release. That's the impression I'm left with years later. Everything about them rubbed me the wrong way and brings out my inner bitter old man wondering "who let this fucking kid in here?". It's like anti-charisma; I can believe people would follow Shepard into hell, but my suspension of disbelief shatters at the idea of people willingly following Ryder to get lunch.

Well uncomfortable in command was actually an issue for the character. You are in charge over Liam because, it is Liam I don't think I need go further there. But follow rules laid out and orders of the commander. Your father in that instance. Doing as he commanded. When you wake in the SAM bay you even get to comment/ask that isn't the job supposed to be Cora's. Meaning Ryder was never expecting to be the leader and wasn't given a gift by daddy. But had a huge job and expectations dropped on them. First shipboard meeting everyone talks around Ryder and dismisses themselves and Ryder even notes how weak they came out. Next meeting they began putting their foot down. It was growth for a character that while they had a background was not the decorated special forces character like Shepard. As was mentioned back when it came out. Following your father on the first world. Was like playing as one of Shepard's squadmates. Trying to catch up with the powerhouse.
So it was a new perspective. And a touch refreshing I thought.

The part after they have SAM is contrived but at least makes sense. No one else can do the job and even Ryder realizes it's a bad situation. The part where they were on the squad AT ALL is what I was on about when I said daddy got them a job they were clearly unqualified for. That they accept this ludicrous situation as merely their due is where I get "entitled".

I remember really hating Ryder's voice, but I started replaying and I think there's something mechanically wrong about the sound mixing. Everybody's voices sound weird and the Ryder one doesn't really stand out.

[Nealithi]

My question is where did you get useless, entitled and daddy got them an important job?
I felt a story/game play segregation when you had to be told to and how to use your scanner. But that was tutorial mode effectively. Both Ryders had served but had their careers cut short as their names were tarnished by their father's actions. And most of the dialog choices I had showed someone unsure they should have the job. (But shouldn't that have gone to Cora? Springs to mind.)

Like I said, I played it once at release. That's the impression I'm left with years later. Everything about them rubbed me the wrong way and brings out my inner bitter old man wondering "who let this fucking kid in here?". It's like anti-charisma; I can believe people would follow Shepard into hell, but my suspension of disbelief shatters at the idea of people willingly following Ryder to get lunch.

Well uncomfortable in command was actually an issue for the character. You are in charge over Liam because, it is Liam I don't think I need go further there. But follow rules laid out and orders of the commander. Your father in that instance. Doing as he commanded. When you wake in the SAM bay you even get to comment/ask that isn't the job supposed to be Cora's. Meaning Ryder was never expecting to be the leader and wasn't given a gift by daddy. But had a huge job and expectations dropped on them. First shipboard meeting everyone talks around Ryder and dismisses themselves and Ryder even notes how weak they came out. Next meeting they began putting their foot down. It was growth for a character that while they had a background was not the decorated special forces character like Shepard. As was mentioned back when it came out. Following your father on the first world. Was like playing as one of Shepard's squadmates. Trying to catch up with the powerhouse.
So it was a new perspective. And a touch refreshing I thought.

The part after they have SAM is contrived but at least makes sense. No one else can do the job and even Ryder realizes it's a bad situation. The part where they were on the squad AT ALL is what I was on about when I said daddy got them a job they were clearly unqualified for. That they accept this ludicrous situation as merely their due is where I get "entitled".

I remember really hating Ryder's voice, but I started replaying and I think there's something mechanically wrong about the sound mixing. Everybody's voices sound weird and the Ryder one doesn't really stand out.

Skipping the voicing part as there were several mechanical errors present in the game.
The on the squad part. Cora is a seriously powerful biotic (at least in cutscenes) Been trained by Asari and groomed as the second. Okay. But what qualities did Kirkland, Fisher, or Greer have? Worse Liam. Liam had to be reminded what the first contact protocol was. By Ryder. Which means Ryder at least read the handbook.
If you want a flaw in the initial team. Why was Ryder the only one with a scanner? The use on the planet was basically a Star Trek tricorder. Scan alien stuff for cataloging. Scan friendly stuff to see if it is useful/salvageable. But only the twins had them.

Now could the game have been better? Sure. I would have liked a little more science background for the twins worked in. Sara having been on expeditions to Prothean ruins as part of her background. So she has a clue on scans and records. Etc.
But if we gripe on might haves. Why do not all games get burned for them? I am currently playing BattleTech a few times over. And the background for your character seems to mean nothing. Example; Betrayed. You will eventually see the former guard that you thought you killed for betraying your family. You may pick one of three actions. I have done all three. Results: Nothing.
Yep they gave you a background, put in a scene for something to happen. And no matter what nothing comes of it.
But I don't hear Hare Brained Games being raked over the coals for it.

[ShoeUnited]

Does Independence Day count as a classic?

I still love it even though is it a deeply flawed movie. Nevermind the 1990's Era computer even capable of linking up with an obviously superior alien computer and putting a virus or whatever in it. The one thing that gets me is that once the shields are down they attack the city Destroyer ships with missiles, they are 15 miles in diameter. That always gets me.

Absolutely. There was a terrible movie that was fun because we blew things up.

Nevermind the 1990's Era computer even capable of linking up with an obviously superior alien computer and putting a virus or whatever in it.

I will do no such thing. It's even worse than you think. This was 1996. Macs were still running System 7 (it wouldn't be called OS 7 until 97) an operating system that had been in use 91 and ported to PowerPC. An alien spacecraft, that not only could interface with a Mac of all things, but was actually susceptible to a Mac Virus. What were there? 5? 6? Nobody was using Macs.

That's like finding out the alien invasion is prone to fructose and omega-3 and it starts raining grape juice and fish.

[McAvoy]

Does Independence Day count as a classic?

I still love it even though is it a deeply flawed movie. Nevermind the 1990's Era computer even capable of linking up with an obviously superior alien computer and putting a virus or whatever in it. The one thing that gets me is that once the shields are down they attack the city Destroyer ships with missiles, they are 15 miles in diameter. That always gets me.

Absolutely. There was a terrible movie that was fun because we blew things up.

Nevermind the 1990's Era computer even capable of linking up with an obviously superior alien computer and putting a virus or whatever in it.

I will do no such thing. It's even worse than you think. This was 1996. Macs were still running System 7 (it wouldn't be called OS 7 until 97) an operating system that had been in use 91 and ported to PowerPC. An alien spacecraft, that not only could interface with a Mac of all things, but was actually susceptible to a Mac Virus. What were there? 5? 6? Nobody was using Macs.

That's like finding out the alien invasion is prone to fructose and omega-3 and it starts raining grape juice and fish.

I can do one better. Finding out the alien invasion is prone to water...