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The Romulan Republic wrote:Firing on someone who's coming at you with a weapon might reasonably be considered self-defense under the law (depending on circumstances).
Forming Left-wing militias to carry out retaliatory acts of violence or intimidation would not be, even if the Nazis did it first.
Please clarify which you are referring to.
Retaliatory acts of violence are still in retaliation for something.
Also, I am surprisingly cool with both things.
Yeah, but the law isn't.
And, perhaps even more importantly, the majority of the country probably isn't either. Even if you want to suppress the other side's views by force of arms, trying to do so will only alienate millions of people who would otherwise be on your side.
I don't expect those who want a violent Left-wing retaliation to be moved by moral arguments, but they might at least listen to practical ones.
You are hurting your own cause, and playing into Trump's rhetoric.
See, non violent resistance depends on your opposition having decency and a goal that does not include your subjugation or destruction.
Nazis aren't that.
What is more, history shows that peaceful resistance will always be portrayed as "trouble makers", "rabble rousers", or this fun word "Uppity". At a certain point the law has to understand that securing the rights of people to advocate for the destruction of other races while stockpiling guns is not a sustainable status quo. Do you think all those weekend warrior types who showed up to the protest with automatic weapons weren't itching for Helter Skelter to break out so that they would finally have a reason to cut loose and blow their load killing someone instead of the half-chub they have had to make do with while fantasizing.
At a certain point negotiations and demonstrations will inevitably break down because no proactive steps are being taken to fix the situation. People did not hug their way to desegregation, the military had to provide escorts for children who might have otherwise been assaulted or killed. We did not beat the Nazis with stern talking tos. We bombed them, and we would have had a harder time if they were not being actively fought by guerilla forces in their own borders and sabotaged by scientists, business leaders, and other well to dos who were in a position to slow the cogs and wheels of human misery.
These guys aren't going to be won over with a smart argument backed by cited sources. There is too much of that out there, it would have worked by now. There are idiots on this thread that keep talking about how Antifa should be looked at as hard as the guys advocating death to Jews. Sorry to tell you this, but talk is cheap and its value is dropping. Real domestic terrorism might go into full swing as the President continues to roll back anti-hate initiatives and investigative resources. This shit is gonna get real unless something happens and if a few of these guys don't suffer consequences for being hate mongers they are going to think what they are doing is right.
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It's not hurting the cause and playing into Donald's rhetoric if it saves the lives of peacefully protesting interfaith clergy who were about to die by fist and flame.
The distinction between Antifa and Nazis is fundamental. Antifa want to fight Nazis because they are genocidal monsters calling for the death of Jews, blacks, gays, and most other people. Nazis want to fight antifa....becuase they really, really want to kill all the jews, blacks, gays, romanis, trans women, and many other groups.
Violence against Neo Nazis is because of their choices. Violence committed by Neo Nazis is because they resent Jews and Black people and others being BORN.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
No, I'm not saying that the two are equivalent, and if I gave that impression, I apologize.
But I'm talking about public perception here. It is very important that the Left not come to be seen as aggressors, or equally guilty, by the mainstream of America.
Its not about winning over the Nazis, Rocketboy1313. Its about the majority who are neither Nazis or Antifa.
And I do recognize that sometimes force is necessary (though not nearly as often as its advocates tend to claim). But I would prefer, whenever possible, that that force be strictly defensive, or at least in the hands of trained professionals, rather than in the hands of militias and vigilantes. For reasons both moral and pragmatic.
Rocketboy1313 wrote:See, non violent resistance depends on your opposition having decency and a goal that does not include your subjugation or destruction.
Nazis aren't that.
What is more, history shows that peaceful resistance will always be portrayed as "trouble makers", "rabble rousers", or this fun word "Uppity". At a certain point the law has to understand that securing the rights of people to advocate for the destruction of other races while stockpiling guns is not a sustainable status quo. Do you think all those weekend warrior types who showed up to the protest with automatic weapons weren't itching for Helter Skelter to break out so that they would finally have a reason to cut loose and blow their load killing someone instead of the half-chub they have had to make do with while fantasizing.
At a certain point negotiations and demonstrations will inevitably break down because no proactive steps are being taken to fix the situation. People did not hug their way to desegregation, the military had to provide escorts for children who might have otherwise been assaulted or killed. We did not beat the Nazis with stern talking tos. We bombed them, and we would have had a harder time if they were not being actively fought by guerilla forces in their own borders and sabotaged by scientists, business leaders, and other well to dos who were in a position to slow the cogs and wheels of human misery.
These guys aren't going to be won over with a smart argument backed by cited sources. There is too much of that out there, it would have worked by now. There are idiots on this thread that keep talking about how Antifa should be looked at as hard as the guys advocating death to Jews. Sorry to tell you this, but talk is cheap and its value is dropping. Real domestic terrorism might go into full swing as the President continues to roll back anti-hate initiatives and investigative resources. This shit is gonna get real unless something happens and if a few of these guys don't suffer consequences for being hate mongers they are going to think what they are doing is right.
Terrorist attacks were always fairly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things that cause minimal change in America. You think fear will change their minds magically?
Terrorist attacks (by both Right-wing extremists and Islamic extremists, among others) caused fairly little direct material damage, relatively speaking.
They've caused an extraordinary amount of social and political damage by provoking us to needless and costly wars (in the case of 911), authoritarian policies in the name of security, fuelling bigotry, and dividing the country.
Or rather, certain peoples' response made the situation worse.
The Romulan Republic wrote:Terrorist attacks (by both Right-wing extremists and Islamic extremists, among others) caused fairly little direct material damage, relatively speaking.
They've caused an extraordinary amount of social and political damage by provoking us to needless and costly wars (in the case of 911), authoritarian policies in the name of security, fuelling bigotry, and dividing the country.
Or rather, certain peoples' response made the situation worse.
The elites were fired up an ready to go to war anyways. The same can be said about the authoritarian tendecies of the government.
The Romulan Republic wrote:Terrorist attacks (by both Right-wing extremists and Islamic extremists, among others) caused fairly little direct material damage, relatively speaking.
They've caused an extraordinary amount of social and political damage by provoking us to needless and costly wars (in the case of 911), authoritarian policies in the name of security, fuelling bigotry, and dividing the country.
Or rather, certain peoples' response made the situation worse.
The elites were fired up an ready to go to war anyways. The same can be said about the authoritarian tendecies of the government.
There are always some people, both in positions of power and the general populace, who want war and/or authoritarianism.
Terrorism gave them a pretext that allowed them to get a large percentage of the populace (even a supermajority, immediately post-911) at least partly on their side.
Handwaving this process away as "conspiracy by the elites" is dangerously oversimplifying the subject. Nothing happens in isolation.
The Romulan Republic wrote:Terrorist attacks (by both Right-wing extremists and Islamic extremists, among others) caused fairly little direct material damage, relatively speaking.
They've caused an extraordinary amount of social and political damage by provoking us to needless and costly wars (in the case of 911), authoritarian policies in the name of security, fuelling bigotry, and dividing the country.
Or rather, certain peoples' response made the situation worse.
The elites were fired up an ready to go to war anyways. The same can be said about the authoritarian tendecies of the government.
There are always some people, both in positions of power and the general populace, who want war and/or authoritarianism.
Terrorism gave them a pretext that allowed them to get a large percentage of the populace (even a supermajority, immediately post-911) at least partly on their side.
Handwaving this process away as "conspiracy by the elites" is dangerously oversimplifying the subject. Nothing happens in isolation.
They did not have to react that way. There was no reason for that sort of overreaction from smart people who have access to experts.
Of course not. I'm not denying that some people (cough-Dick Cheney-cough) wanted war.
What I am saying is that terrorism gave them a pretext to gain public support for things they otherwise could not have. Because we the people, for the most part, reacted like frightened herd animals.
