DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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RobbyB1982
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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Rocketboy1313 wrote: As for the Changeling, I think it is because her skin looks like that of fried chicken due to the changeling disease.
Also when doing his notes he probably shorthanded "Female Changeling" to FC, and as he explained when he first switched to the nickname, is pretty close to KFC. So...

Also, its funnier than going with whatever her "official but never mentioned on the show" name is.
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Eishtmo
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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Every time she's called Sanders all I can think is Spaceballs.
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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bronnt wrote:Ultimately, everything to do with the war story arc is extremely well done. They wrapped the story up right in that regard. I hate what they end up doing with Sisko and it shows the ultimate failing of the entire Prophets story arc. Dukat, as a character, ran out of material a season and a half earlier, but he's still hanging around. And then at the end you see Sisko having "Something I need to do myself," for no damn reason. I really, really hate the Prophets at any point after the Season 6 war arc.
Yeah I was fine with them up to that point but then they just started hurting the show with the god baby and ending stuff. And the weird Benny visions....
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by Archon_Wing »

I think this episode really summarizes the highs and lows of season 7. The invasion was great, especially when they had to deal with the final attack with the spiteful Founder, and closing everyone's character arcs neatly. It shows that even through all the control Founders have over Solids, they really still don't understand how the later works. But I felt it would have been better without the "Dukat's a Fire Demon" thing. The whole Pai-wraiths subplot just felt so out of place and the way Sisko went is certainly as he lived, but he really did deserve better. I somehow think that Dukat should have been somewhere in the Dominion War; I mean they managed to shove Sloan in a relevant role, so I'm sure a major antagonist could have been used better in the end.
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Beastro
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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FakeGeekGirl wrote:If you'll forgive me for going somewhat off-topic I'm going to wax nostalgic about DS9 overall.
Mine is far less so.

I watched it from the outset back in the days when the only tolerable thing on mid-day weekend for a kid was largely Star Trek reruns, TOS after noon, TNG in the early afternoon, DS9 late afternoon and Voyager in the evening and in an age when you could only play your catalogue of video games so much when your friends weren't around to play with.

The problem with that time was they overplayed the hell out of DS9 in syndication even in its first season. We all know how lackluster the series was in the first two seasons, and those were the ones I got more than my fill of. Even when the later seasons added more to what would be seen weekly, there were still those damn early episodes played far too often. On top of that, by the time the later ones came out I'd grown up enough to find better things to do on the weekend so I fell out with the show.

The legacy is a boring, bland taste in my memory of the series despite the quality in it, and it was only later rewatching it that I realized how better it was over the rest of Trek.

Voyager was much the same way with the first season, all the more so given that it was usually either that are pro wrestling or hockey to watch, which never were my thing.
Archon_Wing wrote:But I felt it would have been better without the "Dukat's a Fire Demon" thing. The whole Pai-wraiths subplot just felt so out of place and the way Sisko went is certainly as he lived, but he really did deserve better. I somehow think that Dukat should have been somewhere in the Dominion War; I mean they managed to shove Sloan in a relevant role, so I'm sure a major antagonist could have been used better in the end.
The Dominion War wasn't the overarching concern in the series, though it became the most important once it started. Sisko's relationship with the Prophets was there from the outset and needed to be dealt with in the finale. The problem was how side lined it became with the Dominion War and how much more interesting it was.

The Pai-Wraith thing felt so tacked on. They had to deal with it, so they did like the last bits of food on your plate you keep shoving off in the corner. I can't saw how they could have dealt with it better, I only wish it was tied in with the Dominion War to make the Prophets warnings to Sisko more of temptation where he had to decide between two things he really wanted to do when it was a no brainer what he'd do when they told him not to go.
bronnt wrote:Ultimately, everything to do with the war story arc is extremely well done. They wrapped the story up right in that regard. I hate what they end up doing with Sisko and it shows the ultimate failing of the entire Prophets story arc. Dukat, as a character, ran out of material a season and a half earlier, but he's still hanging around. And then at the end you see Sisko having "Something I need to do myself," for no damn reason. I really, really hate the Prophets at any point after the Season 6 war arc.
More should have been made between the contrast of the gods of the Alpha Quadrant and of the Gamma Quadrant with the Prophets being involved more with the Bajorans and the AQ, but how they do it, encouraging and not commanding, standing against how the Founders operate to the point where they dominate every part of their people's lives.
Last edited by Beastro on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SuccubusYuri
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by SuccubusYuri »

The unintentional comedy of the editing certainly didn't help the fire caves plot. Sisko goes to bed, wakes up, invades Cardassia, conquers Cardassia, returns home, and goes to Vic's and the whole time Dukat and Winn are wandering those frikkin caves.
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by Eric »

I do think the Pai-Wraith were a bit of a wasted opportunity. The Pai-Wraith and the changelings have something in common in that they don't really have a physical form. Yes, there are the same why would have thought the changelings would have been interested in another species that didn't necessarily have one form. Or maybe just take an interest in them because the Prophets the Pai-Wrait enemies made an entire Fleet disappear.

I wasn't the biggest fan of the last season and I think it's pretty hard to pin down why but the last 15 or so minutes are just Incredibly frustrating. The reason was partly touched on in the review and I think they made it worse. If they didn't want Sisko to abandon his family then let him die. Sacrificing yourself to stop a threat is a worthy sacrifice when the alternative is the universe on fire. It would have been a good way to end it. Okay that's too much of a downer ending? Just have him explain that his physical form was destroyed so he can only exist in a non physical form like the Prophets.

We know the Prophets don't really understand time.Sisko did give them some understanding of it but it's theoretical to them. We've seen them bring someone from 200 years in the past to their present so why if Sisko can come back why doesn't he do it right away? Where he is now time doesn't mean anything so if he's not back now it's unlikely he would ever be back. I'll admit that part of my feeling is going back to another episode where Sisko watches as his son grows old hoping to see him again and never really living himself. To me that's kind of a sad and terrifying episode. That last image of his son standing on the station waiting leaves me with the question how long?
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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One thing I wish had been brought up in the review of part one - Weyoun visibly hesitates when the Founder tells him to order the massacre of all the Cardassian citizens. Instead of his usual immediate response that the Founder is wise and all that, he asks if she's sure. Some fangirls want to attribute this to moral reticence but given that destroying Lakarian city was his idea, I'm guessing it was more, "Wait, you want me to pull all our ground troops to go massacre civilians right as the Federation is perilously close to making groundfall and we should be preparing for a siege?" It's so sad because you can tell he knows it's the wrong thing strategically, maybe some part of him even knows it's wrong morally, bu he still does it without question because his loyalty to the Founder is so absolute.

The Vorta are such a tragic species.
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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Now that part two is up I can say... Well not much about the episode, Chuck pretty much nails everything I was going to say and says it much better. My only differing opinion is that Garak seems more like a post-WW2 German than a post WW1 German citizen. The Cardassian that Damar shot in the back and then said that his Cardassia was gone and never coming back in...whichever episode it was they stole the Breen weapon...he was a post-WW1 German Citizen. The loss of Bajor in Emissary, that I would say was Cardassia's WW1 moment. Where they fooled themselves they were still a power and there was a myth of retaking all that was lost.

Post Dominion War, that was WW2 territory and I like to believe that instead of joining the Federation that Bajor and a penitent Cardassia joined together to create their own type of Union which helped add diversity and counterbalance the Federation's worst tendencies (both in complacency and in unilateralism). Of course then about thirty years on they admitted another member who did nothing but whinge, complain, and try to wreck the thing while being the single biggest beneficiary of wealth, status and power of that Union and who eventually flounced out to live in irrelevance, poverty and destitution thereafter.... But that might be taking current politics a bit too far :)

Overall I liked DS9. I liked seeing the Federation that could function in times of war as well as in peace and with one off crisis. I liked seeing the ongoing support role too. When I was a little girl there lots of stories in the library and on tv and radio about the crucial role the government (national and local) had in keeping remote communities going and providing relief when needed. Sometimes they were darker stories, the evacuations and end of habitations like on St Kilda and other islands, sometimes about the way they were re-inhabited and kept going, and sometimes about the far off communities on the other side of the globe which needed guarding against pirates and hostile powers. A message would come into a base, and they'd deploy assets as needed. DS9 really spoke to me in that, and Quark often made me think of the comedic side of that too with the Para Handy tales and the Angus Og comic strips in the papers. There was was a lot of DS9 I really liked, and I wanted to like it more than I did. However...

My big complaints of the series, are still fairly minor. My biggest one, which is particularly marked in this episode, is that it is just too dark. I don't mean in tone, I mean it is literally too dark. I have visual impairments these days, which are getting worse, and DS9 with its greys, dull greens and dull bronze palettes, and the chronically low lighting, means that at times the show might as well be on radio. Put a few more light bulbs in, spread some colour around the place. There are complaints I had about TNG and Voyager, but not being able to see what was going on is never going to be one of them. Brightly lit sets, lots of blocks of colour, that is what I need. Sadly it seems a lot of shows are following the too murky to see what is going on route. It is probably the single biggest thing putting me off current tv, well second biggest thing, but I'm not getting into the other here.

The other complaints about DS9? More about how they delivered things rather than the things themselves. Take "In The Pale Moonlight" for example, a great episode and I have no complaints other than the lighting. It explored the dark sides of Gene's vision marvellously, showing the conflicts and the compromises that had to be made in tough times, and at the end, despite all his bravado; Sisko was still ashamed of his actions even if he thought they were right. Now look at Section 31. Not a hint of shame at what they were doing and nothing more than lipservice towards this greater good crap; and if it were lipservice from the character, which was examined by the narrative, that would have been okay but it was lip service from the production team. The latter was the unforgivable bit. There was never a sense of real condemnation in the narrative about S31's actions. And it should have been condemned, that combined with the way some of the episodes exposed the need to continually strive to be better but never actually came out and said that the striving was the important part, well that led to a fanbase that often became very toxic. DS9's biggest flaw was not in the show itself, but what IT left behind in the fans; a message of its okay to be bastards, and a better world is impossible but instead of always striving it is a case of "can't win, don't try, lets indulge our baser natures". That is why TNG, for all its flaws, early preachyness, and Nemesis is the better fandom to be in. That is DS9's biggest failing, because even though it was a great show I never felt able to enjoy the fans. Even Voyager and Enterprise, for all that they are vastly inferior shows, had less toxic fandoms which were more fun to be in.

Oh, and as a PS; the prophets were dumb and Keiko was dead on about them even back in S1. Bunch of alien voodoo setting themselves up as deities. If DS9 had to deconstruct something over the long term it ought to have been that and showing Bajor transitioning from its pre-Cardassian era superstitions and beliefs to putting that bunch of hoohaa behind it. I cordially despise all that claptrap too. Deconstruct the need for religion as a life-crutch, I want to see that.
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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Never would have happened, Ron Moore is too in love with exploring how faith and religion are better than reason and science. See his episode about Torres going to Klingon hell for not being a good little zealot, Battlestar Galactica, in which the main villain is atheist Baltar, 17th Precinct, in which the villains are damn dirty scientists and people who believe in reason.

I'd have much preferred it ended as I proposed in a previous thread
The problem is, for all intents and purposes, the great threat they will unleash are the Pah Wraiths. But, the Pah Wraiths are a paper tiger. We've seen the extent of their powers, and it boils down to possessing a middle aged botanist, with O'Brien able to kill one, Kai Winn able to make them run away by typing into a console. Dukat trying to conquer the galaxy with them just seemed silly.

It'd be darkly hilarious if the events of the finale happened, and instead of Sisko going alone with a phaser, he had the crew of the Defiant set up the same gas from the Reckoning and pumped it into the caves, with the device modifications from The Assignment, ending their reign of terror with SCIENCE!,

Prophets then say that the Sisko has fulfilled his destiny, yadda yadda yadda.
At least it would be more satisfying than Dukat and Kai Winn performing spells and magic in Star Trek of all places.
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