Discovery: Sound of Thunder

[Deledrius]

Anyone want to bump this

You just did.

[FaxModem1]

Let's face it, the real reason Section 31 is getting all the name drops in new Trek isn't because of who or what they are, it's because of name recognition. See, S31 were the bad guys in DS9, and in Enterprise, and even in Into Darkness. They are, among Trek viewers, a household name. Starfleet Intelligence, not so much. That's the real reason they're being used.

[BunBun299]

You can do a good Section 31 story. Even without portraying them as outright evil. I think they can serve in a sort of grey area, protecting the Federation, in their POV anyway, from unseen threats, and conflicting with the heroes over the means they use. But this would be a difficult line to walk, and should only be done so sparingly.

The way STD portrays them shows an understanding of them like someone who just heard the name and started to read their Memory Alpha entry, but couldn't be bothered to finish because that's like work, man. They're Space Spies, that sounds cool! They obviously never actually watched an episode involving them.

[CrypticMirror]

You can do a good Section 31 story.

Only if it is the final story about them, and it is about their collapse and all their disgusting actions being exposed and the Federation shamefacedly picking itself up afterwards and dealing with its complete loss of any moral highground for generations to come. If it is not about that, then no.

[Mecha82]

They still come off morally grey to me instead of pure evil. Section 31 still has that any means necessary approach to protecting Federation even in modern Trek so that hasn't changed.

[CrypticMirror]

They still come off morally grey to me instead of pure evil. Section 31 still has that any means necessary approach to protecting Federation even in modern Trek so that hasn't changed.

You can't get worse than "by any means necessary". That always means leaping to the worst, yet somehow always conveniently easy because you can dispense with all those tricky morals and ethics which make you take harder and more difficult options instead, methods to solve any problems. If anybody says by any means necessary, for anything, it means they are about to take the easy option and do something truly vile. You want morally grey and conflicted, that is Starfleet Security and we've seen them already in the O'Brien episode where he infiltrates the Orions, or in Chain of Command when they send Picard on that mission which got him captured by the Cardassians. They tackle grey areas, but still try to hold themselves to moral standards, which they might fail at, but they do it anyway. And they are completely answerable to the Federation, unlike S31 which answerable only to its own lack of morals and self appointed assholes.

S31 are a terrorist group, a self appointed group, who self selects replacements, and uses moles and catspaws to appropriate Starfleet and other Federation assets for their own ends without oversight or accountability. You cannot do a good S31 story without admitting that they are unequivocally the bad guys who only select group members on their ability and psychological commitment to being the very, very, veeeeeeeheeery, worst.

[Deledrius]

You can't get worse than "by any means necessary". That always means leaping to the worst, yet somehow always conveniently easy because you can dispense with all those tricky morals and ethics which make you take harder and more difficult options instead, methods to solve any problems. If anybody says by any means necessary, for anything, it means they are about to take the easy option and do something truly vile. You want morally grey and conflicted, that is Starfleet Security [...]

This. Also, everything else you just wrote. So much this.

I don't know why this is so difficult.

[FaxModem1]

You can do a good Section 31 story. Even without portraying them as outright evil. I think they can serve in a sort of grey area, protecting the Federation, in their POV anyway, from unseen threats, and conflicting with the heroes over the means they use. But this would be a difficult line to walk, and should only be done so sparingly.

The way STD portrays them shows an understanding of them like someone who just heard the name and started to read their Memory Alpha entry, but couldn't be bothered to finish because that's like work, man. They're Space Spies, that sounds cool! They obviously never actually watched an episode involving them.

Because, gosh darn it, we need more shows about people who commit genocide in service of a cause in a more positive light.

[Mecha82]

They still come off morally grey to me instead of pure evil. Section 31 still has that any means necessary approach to protecting Federation even in modern Trek so that hasn't changed.

You can't get worse than "by any means necessary". That always means leaping to the worst, yet somehow always conveniently easy because you can dispense with all those tricky morals and ethics which make you take harder and more difficult options instead, methods to solve any problems. If anybody says by any means necessary, for anything, it means they are about to take the easy option and do something truly vile. You want morally grey and conflicted, that is Starfleet Security and we've seen them already in the O'Brien episode where he infiltrates the Orions, or in Chain of Command when they send Picard on that mission which got him captured by the Cardassians. They tackle grey areas, but still try to hold themselves to moral standards, which they might fail at, but they do it anyway. And they are completely answerable to the Federation, unlike S31 which answerable only to its own lack of morals and self appointed assholes.

S31 are a terrorist group, a self appointed group, who self selects replacements, and uses moles and catspaws to appropriate Starfleet and other Federation assets for their own ends without oversight or accountability. You cannot do a good S31 story without admitting that they are unequivocally the bad guys who only select group members on their ability and psychological commitment to being the very, very, veeeeeeeheeery, worst.

Some real wold countries do things that way as well. Do you call USA terrorist country for using drones on innocent people? I doubt you do. So on same standard Section 31 is morally grey rather than pure evil.

[Enterprising]

Some real wold countries do things that way as well. Do you call USA terrorist country for using drones on innocent people? I doubt you do. So on same standard Section 31 is morally grey rather than pure evil.

Utter garbage comparison.

Is the USA a clandestine country trying to keep the notion of their very existence (let alone their operations) secret from the prying eyes?