DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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bronnt
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by bronnt »

Winter wrote:For me the best endings are the ones that make you want to go back and re-watch the series all over again. Good examples include, Uncharted 4, Return of the Jedi, Return of the King, Sozin's Comet, Mass Effect 3's Citadel DLC and TNG's All Good Things. A bad ending makes you wonder what was the point of all this? Examples in including Mass Effect 3 before Citadel DLC, Lost, Batman: Arkham Knight and more that I have blocked from my memory and will not be looking up to remind myself why they suck.

And DS9's What You Leave Behind is... okay. Has some great moments but as Chuck pointed out, the bit between Sisko, Dukat, Winn and the Pah-wraith was really anti-climatic and the four minute flashback scene just seemed to on and on. But the rest of it was really great and ended things on a satisfying note. For me its kinda like the ending to the most current arc from the Tomb Raider comics. It has a great final battle and some really great character drama but the last four pages are a real let down given everything Lara and Sam just went through.

I guess it really dances between to the two extremes, it didn't make me wonder what the point of the whole series was so bu at the same time I don't have any real eager to re-watch the series again. I have re-watched it, many times, but not with the same enthusiasms that I do with TNG and TOS.
I'm sort of with you here. I don't think this compares favorably with All Good Things, despite the fact that this one had a multi-episode build up and the resolution many long story arcs. This is despite the fact that a key plotpoint in All Good Things is pure technobabble. One reason is that All Good Things is so heavily focused on Picard that it really gives his character a strong finish (which is why it's upsetting that the movies once again focus so heavily on him). But the other is that All Good Things leaves you in a really upbeat place. Picard finally sitting down to join the poker game and calmly announcing "5 card stud, nothing wild, and the sky's the limit," is such a beautiful way to remind you that the adventures continue.

DS9 has its downbeats. I don't mind that people have to leave and move on, like Worf goign to Xonos, or O'Brien going to San Francisco. But you have Odo prove that Changelings can live happily alongside solids by....leaving behind every solid he's ever cared for so he can join the Changelings. And the grand conclusion of Sisko's arc is that he's done spending time with all those losers (ie, the main cast of characters we've grown to love) so he can be a God-Prophet-thing. It's not really leaving you with a good feeling about the show as a whole.
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King of the owls
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by King of the owls »

As much I love this series and find the finale for the most part enjoyable. I have a some issues with the finale.

First is Sisko's end of course. It feels like well cheap frankly-a bittersweet end for the sake of it rather it being the natural end of his character.(Because imo Sisko's natural end is him returning to deep space nine as his home and as a place he wants to be a beacon of hope after a ugly war. A place where his child can grow and feel safe-because this may be the frontier but it should not be a place of darkness and despair.It should a place where anyone can start over.)

Second-the pah wraiths are a bit underdeveloped. I think they could been really interesting and Dukat being their puppet could of worked.(Minus him sleeping with Wynn of course.) had they appeared on the show more.(Or at least referenced more.)

Third and this mostly personal gripe but Bashir and Ezri getting together felt a bit of set back for Bashir. He grew so much from well frankly a over eager loser who really needs to stop flirting with his clearly not interested co-worker and it well just bugs me?


But ranting aside. I do love deep space nine-I won't say it's better than TNG or TOS . But I definitely love this series and it's characters, world building(most of the time.) and its messages about war, morality, and the Roddenberry future . It inspired me to take a crack at my own character driven sci-fi story set on a station and a show I really need to re watch one day.
Last edited by King of the owls on Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
griffeytrek
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by griffeytrek »

DS9 and BSG share a certain feature. I don't know if it is simply finale's that Ron Moore is involved in. But they both feel like they should have ended 10 minutes sooner. DS9 should have ended in Vic Fontaine's. The Sisco, Dukat, Wynn, Pah Wraith stuff just felt completely outside the episode. Yeah Sisco needed an ending. But a Sisco speech about the future would have done the job. Or something a bit more worked into the episode. We didn't need to end on a cheest TOS style paper mache stage doing the James T Kirk fisticuffs over a fiery chasm. It brought nothing to the impact of the episode. Without that this would have been one of Trek's crowning moments. Garrick's reflections on the losses of Cardassia. Those last moments with Miles and Bashir. Quark. etc. Ending in Vic's would have been the poker game in All Good Things. It would have left us satisfied but wanting more. Wanting to go back and rewatch everything. To resee it all and see what we missed.

Moore did the same thing with BSG. That last episode should have ended when the classic series theme kicked in and the fleet took its final jump. As we see everyone on the planet forging their lives. The last 10 minutes ruined a near perfect ending. More and more I think it's a Ron Moore thing. He doesn't know when to stop. This seems rather common. I often thing JJ Abram's suffers it too.
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by bluebydefault »

I remember being a kid when DS9 was on and I was super into TNG but couldn't quite rap my head around some of DS9. There were episodes I remember liking and such but the on going story line for somethings like the dominion war kinda lost me. But I was a kid and if i felt like playing outside that day I was going to do it. So until I had the opportunity to watch it again on netflix completely through I just thought it was okay. Back in the day it was harder to keep up with TV that had more going on from episode to episode in terms of the story line. It is way easier now. I wonder if that is part of what hurt the show at the time. Not that it was the only one doing that just that most shows steered away from it. It feels like that's why Voyager is partly set up the way it was because of DS9 maybe having some backlash about it.

But now I think it is my favorite. Its not perfect but what is. And I never liked the idea of humans just being perfect and that's it. We are always growing and changing and learning and the best way to experience that is through characters that are doing that same and not being preachy. (like the first few seasons of TNG)
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by bronnt »

King of the owls wrote:Third and this mostly personal gripe but Bashir and Ezri getting together felt a bit of set back for Bashir. He grew so much from well frankly a over eager loser who really needs to stop flirting with his clearly not interested co-worker and it well just bugs me?
You're not alone. Him still having a thing for Jadzia is something that comes up in the season 6 finale, and it seemed to come out of nowhere. There's that great scene in "The Ship," where he admits he's not nearly so childish and she admires how he's grown up a bit. To me it always seemed like a boyish fascination with a beautiful woman that was much, much older than him, and something he grew out of. Then they backtracked on it and hooked him with Dax's replacement which was rather disappointing.

That said, I felt like it was reasonable enough to let ONE canon couple still be around at the show's end. They killed off Worf's wife, then Sisko leaves Cassidy to be a God, and Odo leaves Kira to prove his people aren't gods. It's weird how the least developed couple is the only one that survives the series.
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

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CrypticMirror wrote:Now that part two is up I can say... Well not much about the episode, Chuck pretty much nails everything I was going to say and says it much better. My only differing opinion is that Garak seems more like a post-WW2 German than a post WW1 German citizen. The Cardassian that Damar shot in the back and then said that his Cardassia was gone and never coming back in...whichever episode it was they stole the Breen weapon...he was a post-WW1 German Citizen. The loss of Bajor in Emissary, that I would say was Cardassia's WW1 moment. Where they fooled themselves they were still a power and there was a myth of retaking all that was lost.

Post Dominion War, that was WW2 territory and I like to believe that instead of joining the Federation that Bajor and a penitent Cardassia joined together to create their own type of Union which helped add diversity and counterbalance the Federation's worst tendencies (both in complacency and in unilateralism). Of course then about thirty years on they admitted another member who did nothing but whinge, complain, and try to wreck the thing while being the single biggest beneficiary of wealth, status and power of that Union and who eventually flounced out to live in irrelevance, poverty and destitution thereafter.... But that might be taking current politics a bit too far :)

Overall I liked DS9. I liked seeing the Federation that could function in times of war as well as in peace and with one off crisis. I liked seeing the ongoing support role too. When I was a little girl there lots of stories in the library and on tv and radio about the crucial role the government (national and local) had in keeping remote communities going and providing relief when needed. Sometimes they were darker stories, the evacuations and end of habitations like on St Kilda and other islands, sometimes about the way they were re-inhabited and kept going, and sometimes about the far off communities on the other side of the globe which needed guarding against pirates and hostile powers. A message would come into a base, and they'd deploy assets as needed. DS9 really spoke to me in that, and Quark often made me think of the comedic side of that too with the Para Handy tales and the Angus Og comic strips in the papers. There was was a lot of DS9 I really liked, and I wanted to like it more than I did. However...

My big complaints of the series, are still fairly minor. My biggest one, which is particularly marked in this episode, is that it is just too dark. I don't mean in tone, I mean it is literally too dark. I have visual impairments these days, which are getting worse, and DS9 with its greys, dull greens and dull bronze palettes, and the chronically low lighting, means that at times the show might as well be on radio. Put a few more light bulbs in, spread some colour around the place. There are complaints I had about TNG and Voyager, but not being able to see what was going on is never going to be one of them. Brightly lit sets, lots of blocks of colour, that is what I need. Sadly it seems a lot of shows are following the too murky to see what is going on route. It is probably the single biggest thing putting me off current tv, well second biggest thing, but I'm not getting into the other here.

The other complaints about DS9? More about how they delivered things rather than the things themselves. Take "In The Pale Moonlight" for example, a great episode and I have no complaints other than the lighting. It explored the dark sides of Gene's vision marvellously, showing the conflicts and the compromises that had to be made in tough times, and at the end, despite all his bravado; Sisko was still ashamed of his actions even if he thought they were right. Now look at Section 31. Not a hint of shame at what they were doing and nothing more than lipservice towards this greater good crap; and if it were lipservice from the character, which was examined by the narrative, that would have been okay but it was lip service from the production team. The latter was the unforgivable bit. There was never a sense of real condemnation in the narrative about S31's actions. And it should have been condemned, that combined with the way some of the episodes exposed the need to continually strive to be better but never actually came out and said that the striving was the important part, well that led to a fanbase that often became very toxic. DS9's biggest flaw was not in the show itself, but what IT left behind in the fans; a message of its okay to be bastards, and a better world is impossible but instead of always striving it is a case of "can't win, don't try, lets indulge our baser natures". That is why TNG, for all its flaws, early preachyness, and Nemesis is the better fandom to be in. That is DS9's biggest failing, because even though it was a great show I never felt able to enjoy the fans. Even Voyager and Enterprise, for all that they are vastly inferior shows, had less toxic fandoms which were more fun to be in.

Oh, and as a PS; the prophets were dumb and Keiko was dead on about them even back in S1. Bunch of alien voodoo setting themselves up as deities. If DS9 had to deconstruct something over the long term it ought to have been that and showing Bajor transitioning from its pre-Cardassian era superstitions and beliefs to putting that bunch of hoohaa behind it. I cordially despise all that claptrap too. Deconstruct the need for religion as a life-crutch, I want to see that.
Here's teh thing. With regards to religion, we already have something for that. It's called "the entire rest of Star Trek."

DS9 is about trying new things, zigging where others have zagged, and taking risks. The rest of the series is for you, with every Sufficiently Advanced Alien turning out to be a humbug or a royal prick, with the No Such Thing As Space Jesus trope, and with the entire human race having somehow just evolved beyond religion and superstition.

DS9 posits, well, what if we did have a case where a religious doctrine was supported by scientific evidence? Maybe, if an entity is revered, exists outside of space and time, and has all these god-like powers, then who's to say it isn't a deity?
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by Wargriffin »

The Problem with the Prophets and the Pah wraiths is the writers tried to make them understandable... and like with the Q basically missed the point. Frankly Speaking DS9 attempts to tackle religion in a none prove we don't need such things way but fails to stick the landing.

Pah Wraiths had already be utterly neutered as a bad guy by their second appearance. If you wanted them to be the dark end of days threat... you shouldn't have already had them beaten by typical Trek technobabble. This is probably a case where the writers put all their energy into the Dominion conflict that they had very little in the tank for the whole Religious angle they wanted. and basically had an OH shit moment when they realized how much on the back burner they had put it.


I feel like Damar's death was a penciled in footnote with how... unremarkable it is. its literally just a speed bump in the episode and the review.
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

Yeah, no argument there. I think it's enough to prove it can be done properly, but execution has to be consistent throughout.

I heard somewhere, either from SFDebris or from a featurette, that the Pah Wraiths were originally supposed to be these little goblins that lived in the fire caves causing mischief. That might have been a better choice than the anti-prophets, all things considered.
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by CareerKnight »

Wargriffin wrote:The Problem with the Prophets and the Pah wraiths is the writers tried to make them understandable... and like with the Q basically missed the point.
I would argue the opposite, that the writers failed to in their attempt to make them understandable and instead made them uninteresting. Keeping them unknowable for the entire run of the show (especially with how much of a role they ended up having) would have been extremely frustrating for a lot of the audience and would have made a lot of what the did just seem like "cause the writers need this to happen now". I'm not saying we needed to know everything about them (some mystery is good) but we needed more (especially with the wraiths) and by the end of the show it really felt like even the writers didn't know enough about them (the Prophets felt like they had around six bulletin points on them and the Pa Wraiths three).
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Re: DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

Post by CrypticMirror »

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote:
DS9 posits, well, what if we did have a case where a religious doctrine was supported by scientific evidence? Maybe, if an entity is revered, exists outside of space and time, and has all these god-like powers, then who's to say it isn't a deity?
Me. For a start.

Anything you can hold a conversation with is not a deity.

If there is one thing worse than a god which does not exist, it is one which claims it does. If it is capable of making that claim in a way we can understand then it is not fit to claim the title.

You want to know the closest thing there is to God in Star Trek? It is Dax. Remember she once crashed a runabout into some technobabble and accidentally created a universe which somehow contained complex life? There is your god, life created not on purpose but by accident, observing but not interacting, and then at the end of the episode, casually dumping it back into the raw technobabble of the universe without a care and just filing a science report. That is the closest thing Star Trek ever came to showing a real god, at least from the point of view of those within that little pocket universe. Of course if she had interacted with them, then she'd no longer be god to them but just another alien of the week.

The Prophets? Debbie and Steve from Number 1 Wormhole Lane? Not even close.
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