Short Treks: Q & A

This forum is for discussing Chuck's videos as they are publicly released. And for bashing Neelix, but that's just repeating what I already said.
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Makeshift Python
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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clearspira wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:02 pm The Enterprise looks fuck all like the Enterprise. There is ''updating'' the old design for the modern era, and then there is creating something that looks nothing like what it is based on.

I assume we are just meant to use willing suspension of disbelief that this ship would be completely redesigned for The Cage and then completely redesigned for The Slow Motion Picture, yeah? Well, balls to that. You are asking me to not think and I refuse to do that. I mean come off it... what is the point in-universe? Why not just make a completely new ship if you are going to gut the entire thing inside and out twice? We are talking a 95% total conversion here. Hull, equipment, technology, furniture, decor - the lot.
My fellow Brits may remember an episode of Only Fools and Horses where Trigger won a medal for claiming that he has been using the same broom for 20 years only to obliviously reveal that it has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in that time. Sooner or later, we have to admit that the 1701 in this episode and the 1701 that made it to The Search For Spock is no longer the same damn ship no matter what its registry says.

Starfleet's unending obsession with changing its uniform design is now at its zenith too. The STD design, this design, The Cage design and the TOS design all within months of each other. And we all thought that wearing the TNG and DS9 designs simultaneously in ''Generations'' was stupid.

My review: A great episode if we were watching a show called ''Star Adventure'' rather than Star Trek. But as it isn't, it isn't.
The conceit with the newer aesthetics of the 23rd century look is that you're supposed to approach it no differently than you would with an actor taking over a role that was held by someone else with nobody commenting on how different they look. Or if you're watching an old TV show that started off as black and white suddenly convert to color in a later season. The Enterprise in "Q & A" isn't going to canonically be redesigned into what we saw in TOS and then redesigned again in THE MOTION PICTURE.

Of course this was going to rub off certain fans who treated past Trek as if it were an accurate docudrama of a specific time and that everything had to fit perfectly like reality, especially if it meant validating the dated 1960s TV sets that would look "hokey" for modern audiences that don't revere Trek like its fans. I'm glad Chuck at least with his reviews didn't give much attention to how different the production design looked for DISCO so that he could focus more on the writing of the story and characters.

I suspect part of the reason they decided to set DISCO a thousand years later starting with S3 was so they could get away from that era and focus on uncharted territory.

Mecha82 wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:31 pm I do wonder why Number 1 doesn't have actual name.
It was supposed to be an ongoing thing in TOS if Number One had remained a regular character beyond "The Cage". It was a way of making her seem mysterious, that she preferred to be referred to by her ship designation rather than her name so to only be known as an officer rather than a person. That's why she's very stoic and with a mind that's computer-like, traits that were transplanted into Spock's character starting with the second pilot. So it seems fitting that a Short Trek would put her and Spock stuck in a turbolift where they get a glimpse of who they are as persons and keep it to themselves.
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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When TNG did an episode which had the bridge of the TOS Enterprise in it, they didn't feel the need to update the aesthetic. Nor did Deep Space Nine when they did the tribbles episode. Not even Enterprise did it with their Mirror Universe two parter. So that claim holds as much water as my granny's cracked colander. It is a claim designed, and carefully calculated, to let some fans sneer at others. It is part of the whole turn the fanbase against each other for free publicity. Hauling it out is an admission that the person doing so just enjoys the opportunity to have a good old sneer.

Even if they did need to massage the visuals a bit, they did not need to go to such drastic lengths. This wasn't an update in the visuals, this was a clean sweep replacement. There is a difference between update and wholesale replacement with something brand new. Update, fine. Clean sweep but then told to ignore it and have a good old sneer at others who point it out, not so fine.
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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CrypticMirror wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:41 pm When TNG did an episode which had the bridge of the TOS Enterprise in it, they didn't feel the need to update the aesthetic. Nor did Deep Space Nine when they did the tribbles episode. Not even Enterprise did it with their Mirror Universe two parter. So that claim holds as much water as my granny's cracked colander. It is a claim designed, and carefully calculated, to let some fans sneer at others. It is part of the whole turn the fanbase against each other for free publicity. Hauling it out is an admission that the person doing so just enjoys the opportunity to have a good old sneer.

Even if they did need to massage the visuals a bit, they did not need to go to such drastic lengths. This wasn't an update in the visuals, this was a clean sweep replacement. There is a difference between update and wholesale replacement with something brand new. Update, fine. Clean sweep but then told to ignore it and have a good old sneer at others who point it out, not so fine.
I never did dislike ''Enterprise.'' Even back in the day I merely thought of it as average and my estimation of it has only gone up with time. And here is a perfect example: compared to STD, ENT made a great effort to look as if it existed within the same universe as TOS and yet also look modern. The monitors on the bridge as an example: flat touchscreens that also had the blinking TOS style lights. The tricorders: handheld, but with simple graphics and making the same sounds. Little things that make all the difference.

And when it came to make a homage to TOS? It went balls to the wall. Same uniforms (even remembering that TOS era uniforms had different badges for different ships which STD could not be arsed with), the same sets, the same looking ship, the same furniture. In The Mirror Darkly has problems and yet it demonstrates a level of effort that laughs in the face of STD and PIC. This whole ''oh, just imagine that it actually looks the way it does in TOS'' is a bullshit excuse because it has been done. Kudos to Disney Star Wars too for doing their best to make the new Star Wars films visually like the old ones, even down to the wireframe graphics on the monitors.

The people behind modern Star Trek hate the old fans and have only begrudgingly begun to accommodate us once it was clear that new fans were simply not materializing. And by accommodate, I mean: ''here's an old man who is played by the same actor as Jean Luc Picard. Now shut up.''
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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clearspira wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:37 pm even remembering that TOS era uniforms had different badges for different ships which STD could not be arsed with
Oh, it's worse than that. There was a big campaign to retcon this from CBS at the time, putting up articles and interviews to attest that it was always a single logo, and the rest were mistakes or "fans making things more complicated". I suspect they realized that their new target audience wouldn't know/care about this fact and decided to unify so as to not confuse them, and the only way to pull that off with existing fans is to gaslight them.
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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CrypticMirror wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:41 pm When TNG did an episode which had the bridge of the TOS Enterprise in it, they didn't feel the need to update the aesthetic. Nor did Deep Space Nine when they did the tribbles episode. Not even Enterprise did it with their Mirror Universe two parter. So that claim holds as much water as my granny's cracked colander.
There's a big difference between those episodes and DISCO. Those episodes were one-off tribute episodes for the fans, whereas DISCO is an ongoing series that's supposed to not only appeal to fans but bring in new audiences. The point of updating the aesthetics was so that the 23rd century would look like OUR future rather than what a 1960s television budgeted show could depict.

At least IMO, I think the visual updates on DISCO's Enterprise was done far better than JJ Abrams' attempt. It actually has the color scheme of TOS, even those jelly bean buttons but all done in a way that still evokes the future from the viewpoint of the 21st century. But if you can never accept anything beyond what TOS looked like exactly, no attempt at modernizing will please you. Much like how there were a segtment of Trek fans that railed against the Klingons being drastically changed in TMP, but were finally appeased with a "canonical" explanation in ENTERPRISE 25 years after TMP.
clearspira wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:37 pmKudos to Disney Star Wars too for doing their best to make the new Star Wars films visually like the old ones, even down to the wireframe graphics on the monitors.
To be fair, the 1977 Star Wars sets hold up a lot better than TOS sets because they were always designed for the big screen and had a certain attention to detail that TOS didn't need or couldn't afford. It was a product of 1960s televisions which were smaller and fuzzier compared to the cinema, and had to deal with harsher budgets. The only reason a replication of the 1960s sets would work beyond fan service is at this point is if you were aiming for a retro lark, rather than wanting modern audiences to look at the show and think "that could be our future". You can't quite say that about the old 1960s sets. Even RedLetterMedia, which has been very critical of DISCO, acknowledges that.
The people behind modern Star Trek hate the old fans
Only disgruntled fans believe this, because it's not simply enough to dislike a new product but imply that the makers actually HATE the fans and do what they do to spite them, which makes the disgruntled feel even more justified to not like the new product. This isn't unique to Trek, I read this in EVERY fandom. I recently got into a discussion with someone who was adamant that a film composer hated scoring a James Bond film, because it never seems enough to dislike their work. You have to imagine there was a vindictive motive behind a creative decision you didn't agree with.
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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I can't be only one who notices hypocricy in same people that complain about pandering towards fans wanting to be fans that are pandered at. Because that's what using those old sets in those episodes of TNG, DS9 and ENT are, pandering towards fans. So to those hypocrites pandering towards fans is good thing when it's towards them. Otherwise they think it's bad thing.
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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I just have to question, they are trying to get Star Trek for people who don't like the original star Trek, so I asked why put it in that time period then?
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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Mecha82 wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:34 am I can't be only one who notices hypocricy in same people that complain about pandering towards fans wanting to be fans that are pandered at. Because that's what using those old sets in those episodes of TNG, DS9 and ENT are, pandering towards fans. So to those hypocrites pandering towards fans is good thing when it's towards them. Otherwise they think it's bad thing.
What an entitled asshole i must be. To want a product that i am buying (cbs access and Amazon Prime ain't free) to be something that I actually want to watch.

This argument is used absolutely nowhere else other than entertainment either. "What?? You want your Big Mac without pickles!? How dare you expect to be pandered to mister."
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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Makeshift Python wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:12 am
There's a big difference between those episodes and DISCO. Those episodes were one-off tribute episodes for the fans, whereas DISCO is an ongoing series that's supposed to not only appeal to fans but bring in new audiences. The point of updating the aesthetics was so that the 23rd century would look like OUR future rather than what a 1960s television budgeted show could depict.
Yeah, it's indeed sure a pity TOS was never able to find any significant new audiences or brand appeal since it went off the air. Fifty years ago.

There's a difference between "old" and "iconic." And, frankly, given the amount of 80s stylistic nostalgia I see going around, I'd say "old and obviously dated" has a marketable iconicism all it's own.

Not as much nostalgia for the times they updated Superman's costume in the 90s, though. But hey, give it five years, maybe I'll be proven wrong. And Jean Paul Valley Batman is just ACHING for a DCEU appearance! :D
To be fair, the 1977 Star Wars sets hold up a lot better than TOS sets because they were always designed for the big screen and had a certain attention to detail that TOS didn't need or couldn't afford.
To be fair of the 1977 Star Wars sets look like crap. I mean deliberately so—they look like backwater hovels and the inside of tramp freighters that haven't been cleaned in awhile. By the same token, the sets in "Black Hawk Down" have more hi-def, high-production value screen presence than the ones from "The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari" and "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory." :mrgreen:
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Re: Short Treks: Q & A

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Ranchoth wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:17 am
Makeshift Python wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:12 am
There's a big difference between those episodes and DISCO. Those episodes were one-off tribute episodes for the fans, whereas DISCO is an ongoing series that's supposed to not only appeal to fans but bring in new audiences. The point of updating the aesthetics was so that the 23rd century would look like OUR future rather than what a 1960s television budgeted show could depict.
Yeah, it's indeed sure a pity TOS was never able to find any significant new audiences or brand appeal since it went off the air. Fifty years ago.

There is such a thing as audiences that became Star Trek fans not solely because of TOS, namely, pretty much everything that came after 1969. TNG drew a whole new set of audiences aside from the loyal Trekkies. 20 years later J.J. Abrams' first film did the same. Drawing in a new audience isn't the same thing as trying to appeal to people that don't like Star Trek, as @thebestoftherest alluded. But that has always been the argument by fans who were not keen on a newer product "this is made for people that don't like X". I've heard that about CASINO ROYALE, which is now one of the most revered Bond films.

There's a difference between "old" and "iconic." And, frankly, given the amount of 80s stylistic nostalgia I see going around, I'd say "old and obviously dated" has a marketable iconicism all it's own.
I think the height of the 60s being marketable for nostalgia had already reached its peak in the 80s and 90s, when adult boomers were being aimed with programs like THE WONDER YEARS, FORREST GUMP, AUSTIN POWERS, etc which were all a love letter to period of time. That's why we got episodes like "Our Man Bashir" and "Trials and Tribble-ations", both which couldn't have aired at a more perfect time.

The 80s nostalgia will soon fade off the same way 60s nostalgia faded off past the new millennium. STRANGER THINGS can only remain popular for so long. The 90s will likely still have that staying power for another decade, while a rise in the 00s nostalgia takes over. As Chuck once said on his TRANSFORMERS review: "nostalgia seems to work at a 20 year displacement".
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