Was Bane charismatic in Dark Knight Rises?

[Captain Crimson]

The Nolanverse is the worst thing to happen to Batman in decades.

Well that's not a very hot take regarding Dark Knight Rises for instance, but what's so bad about the first two movies?

I dunno, maybe there's something unsettling about unstable billionaire going around taking the law into his own hands in the era of Trump? Just speculating.

Well that's two pieces that fit together real well like but what does it have to do with the impact on batman again?

I just get the impression it would be unsettling to some people. Not me specifically. As I had said, I was just speculating.

Yes. As I said, that makes sense in describing Fuzzy's response, but doesn't really make sense as far as what he said.

Well, you do you, homey. I was not passing judgment. I was just remarking upon it. But who knows. I could be 110% WRONG. To quote Lex Luthor.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

When you say Lex Luthor, are you saying it like loo-thur, or like loo-thor?

[Captain Crimson]

When you say Lex Luthor, are you saying it like loo-thur, or like loo-thor?

You win the Internet, sir!

[Jonathan101]

I've kind of heard this brought up before, but like during the football stadium speech, was this very tension building or anything? Like never did I get the impression that he was convincing literally anybody that what he was doing was in the slightest form a drop of liberation in what he was doing. It seemed to have the dramatic effect of a bank heist or something. Like, this guy has nothing on Lenin or McCarthy.

My head canon is that, since he's a former League of Shadows member, he's acting as an agent provocateur of sorts- he was posing as an anarcho-communist extremist precisely to demonise anarchism and communism etc, because in actuality he's much closer to a right-wing authoritarian extremist instead.

Just imagine what the world of The Dark Knight Rises even during the takeover of Gotham, let alone afterwards. The world in general and the United States in particular would become a draconian police state overnight in response to what Bane did...which is exactly what a League of Shadows extremist would want. Crime and evil cannot be tolerated, after all, and who better to scapegoat than political causes that think the state and prisons don't have any legitimacy to begin with?

As to Bane vs Lenin or McCarthy...to be frank, Bane has a WAY better sense of theatricality and is FAR better at drawing your attention than they were, lets' be honest. I'm pretty sure that it's McCarthy and Lenin who should be taking notes from Bane.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I've kind of heard this brought up before, but like during the football stadium speech, was this very tension building or anything? Like never did I get the impression that he was convincing literally anybody that what he was doing was in the slightest form a drop of liberation in what he was doing. It seemed to have the dramatic effect of a bank heist or something. Like, this guy has nothing on Lenin or McCarthy.

My head canon is that, since he's a former League of Shadows member, he's acting as an agent provocateur of sorts- he was posing as an anarcho-communist extremist precisely to demonise anarchism and communism etc, because in actuality he's much closer to a right-wing authoritarian extremist instead.

Alright, so this is all good in understanding. It's also the premise that I'm challenging, I would say. The whole idea of it being a Fascist allegory is fun to me, just to apprise that I'm not ignorant to it.

Just imagine what the world of The Dark Knight Rises even during the takeover of Gotham, let alone afterwards. The world in general and the United States in particular would become a draconian police state overnight in response to what Bane did...which is exactly what a League of Shadows extremist would want. Crime and evil cannot be tolerated, after all, and who better to scapegoat than political causes that think the state and prisons don't have any legitimacy to begin with?

The world of Gotham in the movie seems more sterile than Gotham otherwise should be. I get how abnormal it is by practical standards, but Gotham depicted in the movie's 2nd act is pretty much just how we're experiencing lockdown right now with the virus. Not particularly hair rising, just intimidating.

My point if I should clarify, the only draconian thing we really get in the actual midst of the lockdown is the kangaroo court. The ice walk is a nice touch but somewhat adjunct in scope as it was more for enemies of the newfound state.

As to Bane vs Lenin or McCarthy...to be frank, Bane has a WAY better sense of theatricality and is FAR better at drawing your attention than they were, lets' be honest. I'm pretty sure that it's McCarthy and Lenin who should be taking notes from Bane.

FINE

[Jonathan101]

I've kind of heard this brought up before, but like during the football stadium speech, was this very tension building or anything? Like never did I get the impression that he was convincing literally anybody that what he was doing was in the slightest form a drop of liberation in what he was doing. It seemed to have the dramatic effect of a bank heist or something. Like, this guy has nothing on Lenin or McCarthy.

My head canon is that, since he's a former League of Shadows member, he's acting as an agent provocateur of sorts- he was posing as an anarcho-communist extremist precisely to demonise anarchism and communism etc, because in actuality he's much closer to a right-wing authoritarian extremist instead.

Alright, so this is all good in understanding. It's also the premise that I'm challenging, I would say. The whole idea of it being a Fascist allegory is fun to me, just to apprise that I'm not ignorant to it.

Just imagine what the world of The Dark Knight Rises even during the takeover of Gotham, let alone afterwards. The world in general and the United States in particular would become a draconian police state overnight in response to what Bane did...which is exactly what a League of Shadows extremist would want. Crime and evil cannot be tolerated, after all, and who better to scapegoat than political causes that think the state and prisons don't have any legitimacy to begin with?

The world of Gotham in the movie seems more sterile than Gotham otherwise should be. I get how abnormal it is by practical standards, but Gotham depicted in the movie's 2nd act is pretty much just how we're experiencing lockdown right now with the virus. Not particularly hair rising, just intimidating.

My point if I should clarify, the only draconian thing we really get in the actual midst of the lockdown is the kangaroo court. The ice walk is a nice touch but somewhat adjunct in scope as it was more for enemies of the newfound state.

As to Bane vs Lenin or McCarthy...to be frank, Bane has a WAY better sense of theatricality and is FAR better at drawing your attention than they were, lets' be honest. I'm pretty sure that it's McCarthy and Lenin who should be taking notes from Bane.

FINE

I wouldn't say it's a Fascist "allegory"- I just think that Bane, personally, is a crypto-Fascist (sort of) spouting rhetoric he doesn't believe to further his true aims.

But "allegory" is too strong, since the movie didn't really make that clear and I'm just filling in the blanks in my own mind. The actual intended allegory was to "A Tale of Two Cities" by Charles Dickens, after all.

You seem to be arguing though that life under Bane wasn't all THAT bad, and is comparable to what we are going through right now, except for Scarecrow sending people to their deaths. In that case, you might have missed the part where Bane set all of the criminals of Gotham loose, hundreds of police officers are being kept prisoner, people are being pulled out of their homes by angry mobs, the mayor and his staff have been murdered, bridges have been blown up, and...oh yes, there is a nuclear bomb that might go off at any moment.

Apart from ALL THAT though, I guess, not terribly draconian.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I wouldn't say it's a Fascist "allegory"- I just think that Bane, personally, is a crypto-Fascist (sort of) spouting rhetoric he doesn't believe to further his true aims.

But "allegory" is too strong, since the movie didn't really make that clear and I'm just filling in the blanks in my own mind. The actual intended allegory was to "A Tale of Two Cities" by Charles Dickens, after all.

You seem to be arguing though that life under Bane wasn't all THAT bad, and is comparable to what we are going through right now, except for Scarecrow sending people to their deaths. In that case, you might have missed the part where Bane set all of the criminals of Gotham loose, hundreds of police officers are being kept prisoner, people are being pulled out of their homes by angry mobs, the mayor and his staff have been murdered, bridges have been blown up, and...oh yes, there is a nuclear bomb that might go off at any moment.

Apart from ALL THAT though, I guess, not terribly draconian.

Maybe not too properly, but when I say allegory I just mean that Bane is Fascisming. That's at least as far as Fascism as I understand it tending to be a perversion of modern government principles with the end result of owning society like it's a monarchy. This of course is semantics surrounding what Fascism is, but also I'd agree that Bane doesn't set a real world parallel so to speak for historical fascism.

I would never say that the conditions of Gotham in the movie aren't that bad. Also, people being pulled out of their homes is probably both something I missed and also pertinent to the setting for this matter. It's just a backdrop that changes though. As far as a Batman story, quarantine isn't an exciting premise. We don't see people starving to death lest they join the gangs in the Narrows, they just better stay in their homes. And the cops? Who the hell cares about the cops, they are typically lame in Batman stories on purpose.

If you take away his speeches then nothing really changes about what he's doing. He blows up the football stadium and yells at the crowd to blow him while he decomissions the bridges and lets the prisoners loose. As I'm typing this I'm thinking that the movie wouldn't be fundamentally changed except for time if you did it like that.

[Mecha82]

Too bad that Bane possibly being charismatic is undermined by writing that Nolan's trilogy has. Then again maybe he is charismatic based on standards of Nolan's trilogy. Then again DKR also has Bruce Wayne being stupid for sake of plot and allowing himself to be robbed so yeah.

[Jonathan101]

Maybe not too properly, but when I say allegory I just mean that Bane is Fascisming. That's at least as far as Fascism as I understand it tending to be a perversion of modern government principles with the end result of owning society like it's a monarchy. This of course is semantics surrounding what Fascism is, but also I'd agree that Bane doesn't set a real world parallel so to speak for historical fascism.

I would never say that the conditions of Gotham in the movie aren't that bad. Also, people being pulled out of their homes is probably both something I missed and also pertinent to the setting for this matter. It's just a backdrop that changes though. As far as a Batman story, quarantine isn't an exciting premise. We don't see people starving to death lest they join the gangs in the Narrows, they just better stay in their homes. And the cops? Who the hell cares about the cops, they are typically lame in Batman stories on purpose.

If you take away his speeches then nothing really changes about what he's doing. He blows up the football stadium and yells at the crowd to blow him while he decomissions the bridges and lets the prisoners loose. As I'm typing this I'm thinking that the movie wouldn't be fundamentally changed except for time if you did it like that.

Well, he needs the speeches to explain to everyone in the city- and to the outside world- what he is actually up to and to make it clear that nobody can leave. He's not trying to be charismatic in that scene so much as he's trying to be intimidating and making sure everybody knows the score, which totally works. If you took out that scene, you'd wonder why people aren't trying to flee.

The true test of his charisma is more that he has followers who are perfectly willing to die for him because they believe in what he is selling and how he is selling it, and things like that.

"Charisma" is ultimately a combination of attitude and performance, but also external factors like how receptive people are to your personality. Whether it is a "thing in itself" is different.

Since you mentioned McCarthy earlier, I'll give you an anecdote- reportedly, critics and audience members who saw the movie "Good Bye and Good Luck", even if they otherwise enjoyed the movie, complained about the actor who played Joseph McCarthy, saying he was too over-the-top and hammy to be believable and taken seriously...except, that wasn't an actor, that was footage of the real McCarthy, the footage that a LOT of people got behind and went on an anti-Communist crusade for. My point being, whether you find someone "charismatic" can be somewhat subjective.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well, he needs the speeches to explain to everyone in the city- and to the outside world- what he is actually up to and to make it clear that nobody can leave. He's not trying to be charismatic in that scene so much as he's trying to be intimidating and making sure everybody knows the score, which totally works. If you took out that scene, you'd wonder why people aren't trying to flee.

The true test of his charisma is more that he has followers who are perfectly willing to die for him because they believe in what he is selling and how he is selling it, and things like that.

"Charisma" is ultimately a combination of attitude and performance, but also external factors like how receptive people are to your personality. Whether it is a "thing in itself" is different.

Since you mentioned McCarthy earlier, I'll give you an anecdote- reportedly, critics and audience members who saw the movie "Good Bye and Good Luck", even if they otherwise enjoyed the movie, complained about the actor who played Joseph McCarthy, saying he was too over-the-top and hammy to be believable and taken seriously...except, that wasn't an actor, that was footage of the real McCarthy, the footage that a LOT of people got behind and went on an anti-Communist crusade for. My point being, whether you find someone "charismatic" can be somewhat subjective.

Well that's quite a bit I can work with.

Mind, I didn't say get rid of the scene, but I made it convey just fundamentally what you're saying. He blows up the stadium and says "that's nothing compared to this sucker" and everybody sees. This whole bit about freeing Gotham and disgracing Gordon has no bearing on anything because he is essentially freezing society in its tracks anyway. Like I'm watching him do that, I get that it's adding insult to injury to the sanctity of order post Joker and also freeing convicts at the same time as to emphasize dominance, but that itself doesn't impact the police department, Gordon, or the citizens who looked up to Harvey Dent. At least we don't get any of that last part in the movie.

I think Batman dealing with competent henchmen of Bane would have been very compelling to see. More than his Prestige moment with the Bomb -- all in fashion with Batman being a witty bastard I mean.

That's very interesting what you talk about regarding McCarthy because it's true that movies are much more processed candy then real life often. Aesthetically sweet, but essentially so for the sake of conveying to the audience. I really do think Bane presents himself as the real deal. I was a fan of Hardy for this period of his bulking, so it's quite a spectacle, crafted in Nolan's cinematic tone nicely. In terms of McCarthy charisma though, I mostly have in mind anti-communist mindset that would subsist among general public, but that might be misguided as I'm not brushed up on it as a ethos in time. Really though I thought all that was granted to his name was just because he was the General of the big war. That's what I'm saying Bane missed. He didn't capture the heart of society or anything, and there's never a Hans or Peter Gruber moment where they're really revealed as conmen, but just henchmen I guess.

Really, Hardy could have just cupped his balls the whole stadium scene and it'd be badass.