Babylon 5: A case of Captain Lockley

[RobbyB1982]

Lockley was fine, she just had the problem of she came in during the final season, and was not only having to replace Ivanova, but also the absence of Marcus as well. And on top of that, since Sheriden's position changed dramatically, she was also in some ways replacing him! And on top of all that, the show finished almost all of its actual narrative and character arcs in season 4 (since they were worried about cancellation) so there wasn't a lot of meat in the season until the second half... in stories she wasn't really involved in.

That's just a hard weight for any character to carry. If she'd first shown up in season 4, or if Ivonova had stuck around, it'd be a different matter entirely. (And JMS has said if he'd known she was going to leave, he wouldn't have killed Marcus.)

Similarly as mentioned, over in Star Trek, Ezri Dax showing up in the last season of DS9 was just painful because not only was she replacing Jadzia, she was REALLY replacing Jadzia, complete with stealing her character and emotional arcs and mucking with both Worf and Bashir as a result. (And its super squicky that she ended up with Bashit honestly.) I think the character would have been better served if she'd just shown up for two episodes to say "her memories live on" and then leave.... or if she'd been replaced by a man so everyone but Sisko has to get used to it, but no squick love triangle shenanigans.

On the other hand, in TNG you had Polaski replacing Crusher in season 2, and only season 2. Crusher hadn't been around so long that having a replacement would have been unforgivable, but Polaski was far too rough and unlikeable early on (they tried to recreate the Bones and Spock dynamic with her and Data and it did NOT work) and she was okay by the end of her season, but it was too late, the audiences already hated her.

On a different long runner show like MASH, they slowly replaced characters one by one. The commanding officer, one doctor, then another, and the replacement was *always* an improvement, but when Radar left in season nine, (nine!), they knew they couldn't replace or improve on him, so they didn't try. They just had one of the other already existing character fill the role and adapt to the changes his leaving caused.

SO yeah. Lochley was fine, and she was going to be a major recurring character on Crusade and that probably would have done wonders for her... but being the new, outsider character, in the final season? That's rough.

[Percysowner]

Similarly as mentioned, over in Star Trek, Ezri Dax showing up in the last season of DS9 was just painful because not only was she replacing Jadzia, she was REALLY replacing Jadzia, complete with stealing her character and emotional arcs and mucking with both Worf and Bashir as a result. (And its super squicky that she ended up with Bashit honestly.) I think the character would have been better served if she'd just shown up for two episodes to say "her memories live on" and then leave.... or if she'd been replaced by a man so everyone but Sisko has to get used to it, but no squick love triangle shenanigans.

Oh, Ezri. On top of all of this, they went from "Trills have a taboo against reuniting with people they were married to in a former host" to "lets put Jadzia back in the closest contact available with the guy they were married to 4.2 seconds ago". Retconning the Trill mythology might have worked if it hadn't been a large part of a hugely controversial episode with one of the, if not the, first F/F kisses on television.

[Captain Crimson]

Lockley was fine, she just had the problem of she came in during the final season, and was not only having to replace Ivanova, but also the absence of Marcus as well. And on top of that, since Sheriden's position changed dramatically, she was also in some ways replacing him! And on top of all that, the show finished almost all of its actual narrative and character arcs in season 4 (since they were worried about cancellation) so there wasn't a lot of meat in the season until the second half... in stories she wasn't really involved in.

I think your declaration that she'd "replaced him" is off-base. Now granted, if this were happening today, I think you'd have a better basis to make the claim. But it's not like where you just gender-swap an older character who happened to be male, which SW is consistently guilty of with LF's SJW agenda. She doesn't replace him, Sheridan still holds a vital role to the end of the series, and if anything, he is promoted to ISA President. The focus is still on him, even with the final episode. They work together through the telepath crisis on the station. Replacing Ivanova has more of a ring of truth than replacing Sheridan. I think it's meant to parallel Mr. Washington, who was the general of the colonial army, and then became president himself.

[Mecha82]

Lockley was fine, she just had the problem of she came in during the final season, and was not only having to replace Ivanova, but also the absence of Marcus as well. And on top of that, since Sheriden's position changed dramatically, she was also in some ways replacing him! And on top of all that, the show finished almost all of its actual narrative and character arcs in season 4 (since they were worried about cancellation) so there wasn't a lot of meat in the season until the second half... in stories she wasn't really involved in.

I think your declaration that she'd "replaced him" is off-base. Now granted, if this were happening today, I think you'd have a better basis to make the claim. But it's not like where you just gender-swap an older character who happened to be male, which SW is consistently guilty of with LF's SJW agenda. She doesn't replace him, Sheridan still holds a vital role to the end of the series, and if anything, he is promoted to ISA President. The focus is still on him, even with the final episode. They work together through the telepath crisis on the station. Replacing Ivanova has more of a ring of truth than replacing Sheridan. I think it's meant to parallel Mr. Washington, who was the general of the colonial army, and then became president himself.

While I mostly agree with this I don't agree with part about LF having some kind of "SJW" agenda when that's not actual thing. For some one who claims to be zen when it comes to politics you sure seem to have certain kind of stance when you believe that "SJWs" are real. Seriously, that term was never meant to be used un-ironically. I have zero respect towards those that do.

[Captain Crimson]

Lockley was fine, she just had the problem of she came in during the final season, and was not only having to replace Ivanova, but also the absence of Marcus as well. And on top of that, since Sheriden's position changed dramatically, she was also in some ways replacing him! And on top of all that, the show finished almost all of its actual narrative and character arcs in season 4 (since they were worried about cancellation) so there wasn't a lot of meat in the season until the second half... in stories she wasn't really involved in.

I think your declaration that she'd "replaced him" is off-base. Now granted, if this were happening today, I think you'd have a better basis to make the claim. But it's not like where you just gender-swap an older character who happened to be male, which SW is consistently guilty of with LF's SJW agenda. She doesn't replace him, Sheridan still holds a vital role to the end of the series, and if anything, he is promoted to ISA President. The focus is still on him, even with the final episode. They work together through the telepath crisis on the station. Replacing Ivanova has more of a ring of truth than replacing Sheridan. I think it's meant to parallel Mr. Washington, who was the general of the colonial army, and then became president himself.

While I mostly agree with this I don't agree with part about LF having some kind of "SJW" agenda when that's not actual thing. For some one who claims to be zen when it comes to politics you sure seem to have certain kind of stance when you believe that "SJWs" are real. Seriously, that term was never meant to be used un-ironically. I have zero respect towards those that do.

I want to say this - that SJW politics in the entertainment industry is far different than those in the actual government sphere. When fandom criticizes it, if they're apolitical, that's one thing. It's only when they comprise the larger electorate that to me, it becomes an issue. Which, I do not. So I am clarifying you on that. Social justice activism by trying to control or influence the stories that people consume is far different than trying to address actual systemic flaws with a cultural psyche, which is important. I just am not the one to do so.

But what do I mean by that? Well, a lot of the new producers, writers, and so forth for LF have no depth or understanding to not just the past lore of SW, but also classic SF overall. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Mr. Abrams admit he is not an ST fan? There you go. A few have shown confusion to what the "golden age of sci-fi" is, and I sincerely doubt these are people who hardcore geeks, the way we are, who debate this stuff and rewatch it. Which is fine if they hire employees based on their own qualifications, and as to the industry of Hollywood, there is room to improve. But a lot of these picks strike me as being chosen purely to score points, purely because it's PC. Which, you know, is also fine if they do a good job, but when they also consistently demonstrate a lack of proper understanding to the golden age of SF and boast they want diversity, you're gonna get the impression they don't know what they're talking about. That they are NOT qualified.

I will give you an example. We had plenty of diversity back in the good ol' days. DS9 as Mr. Chuck has noted, showed off a diverse cast of aliens and humans from all ethnic backgrounds, and Captain Sisko was not "the black captain." That only mattered when it was relevant. Past that, he was their boss. I also see tons of subtle LGBT undertones in the Trill species, and my only complaint was we never see the natural bisexual relationships you'd expect from it. B5 was also diverse. Same as SG, and seriously, the only issues that required addressing are lack of natural and not heavy-handed LGBT representation, but if the story doesn't suffer for lack of it at the end, that's no problem.

We had proper diversity back in the day. The new authors don't know that. As I had said, I don't get the impression they consistently rewatch older SF, and debate about it, and discuss it. And if they do, they take entirely the wrong lessons away from it. When it comes to plot and lore... shallow diversity is as shallow as it gets. This is done just to score points. I mean, come on. Why else would they throw in the literal lip service of a lesbian kiss for TROS, that they knew was never going to make it into the final cut for overseas markets, yet falsely advertised it as a victory? I'd be fine with that. I'd prefer it natural. But the larger issue here is they pretend to be support diversity, they don't care about actual diversity. Largely that they're a huge multinational corporate entity that has limits in place that crush creativity for profit. So yes, I dislike this new habit of being woke. Give me actual equality, please. We really are just the same, in all the ways that matter.

Just my two cents and a cup of coffee, though.

[Mecha82]

That's pretty much same BS that I have seen a lot before. I don't believe that at all nor I care to. At end of day it's just another extreme of self-righteous people thinking that they are on some kind of crusade while hating others on other side from doing same. To put it simply I am too old and mature for that self-righteous BS and I can't stand it. So you better not try to start arguing about it and try convince me that it's some how real because I could care less.

[Captain Crimson]

That's pretty much same BS that I have seen a lot before. I don't believe that at all nor I care to. At end of day it's just another extreme of self-righteous people thinking that they are on some kind of crusade while hating others on other side from doing same. To put it simply I am too old and mature for that self-righteous BS and I can't stand it. So you better not try to start arguing about it and try convince me that it's some how real because I could care less.

How is it self-righteous? Also, have I said things like how ONLY left-wingers are the SJWs? The right has them too, you know. And my larger suspicion is the reason Hollyweird does this is that it's a deflection tactic to keep people from looking too deep into their skeletons, since it's to cover up their own abuses of women, and minorities, and what have you behind the scenes. Tinfoil, but it's what I think. However, if there is no convincing you, you've had this argument before, and you won't be budged, then you are correct, there is nothing more to discuss.

[RobbyB1982]

I think your declaration that she'd "replaced him" is off-base. Now granted, if this were happening today, I think you'd have a better basis to make the claim. But it's not like where you just gender-swap an older character who happened to be male, which SW is consistently guilty of with LF's SJW agenda. She doesn't replace him, Sheridan still holds a vital role to the end of the series, and if anything, he is promoted to ISA President. The focus is still on him, even with the final episode. They work together through the telepath crisis on the station. Replacing Ivanova has more of a ring of truth than replacing Sheridan. I think it's meant to parallel Mr. Washington, who was the general of the colonial army, and then became president himself.

Uhm... how do you get that conclusion from what I wrote? I wasn't indicating that at all. Just that in addition to entirely replacing the two actors that left the show, she also took Sheriden's role as active Captain on the ship. Yes obviously the focus stayed largely with Sheriden, but the role and what he was allowed to do and how he was treated was different.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Lockley was fine, she just had the problem of she came in during the final season, and was not only having to replace Ivanova, but also the absence of Marcus as well. And on top of that, since Sheriden's position changed dramatically, she was also in some ways replacing him! And on top of all that, the show finished almost all of its actual narrative and character arcs in season 4 (since they were worried about cancellation) so there wasn't a lot of meat in the season until the second half... in stories she wasn't really involved in.

I think your declaration that she'd "replaced him" is off-base. Now granted, if this were happening today, I think you'd have a better basis to make the claim. But it's not like where you just gender-swap an older character who happened to be male, which SW is consistently guilty of with LF's SJW agenda. She doesn't replace him, Sheridan still holds a vital role to the end of the series, and if anything, he is promoted to ISA President. The focus is still on him, even with the final episode. They work together through the telepath crisis on the station. Replacing Ivanova has more of a ring of truth than replacing Sheridan. I think it's meant to parallel Mr. Washington, who was the general of the colonial army, and then became president himself.

Yikes.

[Captain Crimson]

I think your declaration that she'd "replaced him" is off-base. Now granted, if this were happening today, I think you'd have a better basis to make the claim. But it's not like where you just gender-swap an older character who happened to be male, which SW is consistently guilty of with LF's SJW agenda. She doesn't replace him, Sheridan still holds a vital role to the end of the series, and if anything, he is promoted to ISA President. The focus is still on him, even with the final episode. They work together through the telepath crisis on the station. Replacing Ivanova has more of a ring of truth than replacing Sheridan. I think it's meant to parallel Mr. Washington, who was the general of the colonial army, and then became president himself.

Uhm... how do you get that conclusion from what I wrote? I wasn't indicating that at all. Just that in addition to entirely replacing the two actors that left the show, she also took Sheriden's role as active Captain on the ship. Yes obviously the focus stayed largely with Sheriden, but the role and what he was allowed to do and how he was treated was different.

Perhaps I'd misunderstood.