Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

This is for topical issues effecting our fair world... you can quit snickering anytime. Note: It is the desire of the leadership of SFDebris Conglomerate that all posters maintain a civil and polite bearing in this forum, regardless of how you feel about any particular issue. Violators will be turned over to Captain Janeway for experimentation.
User avatar
Eishtmo
Officer
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:23 am

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by Eishtmo »

I know guys, but I am trying to have a discussion rather than shut this out entirely. I'll try to stay civil.
JoeThree wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:03 am Don't be pedantic, YOU called it racist. Tell me, which race were you thinking was being denied citizenship today? The Irish? Don't play stupid.
The definition of "race" has changed over the years. Once it simply where you were from, so races could be what we call nationalities. Irish, Greek, German, Italian, were all races to the people at the time. That really didn't change until the 20th century. Just because the current, very flawed, definition groups skin color by race (except Jews for some reason, never understood that), doesn't mean it didn't have a different definition before.

And again, I didn't say Mexican, you did. The fact that most undocumented immigrants are people who overstay student or work visas, and are likely from India or Pakistan, seems to have escaped your notice. Or that those who cross the border are more likely to be from further south (Panama, Nicaragua, etc) rather than Mexico.
We have legal immigration so we can vet the people who come into our country and ensure they're not just going to leech off our benefits or commit acts of crime. We don't need illegals hopping the border because they can't be arsed to do things the right way.
"We don't want your kind around here." Also ignores the fact that undocumented immigrants typically cannot receive government benefits (no social security number, kind of needed for most of them). At the same time, they still buy things and thus pay sales taxes, so they have to pay in but get nothing. And I would need to see crime stats to back that immigrants commit more crime. Do you have any? It's your argument, so you need to support it.
And it's a crime to not be a citizen for the dangers they pose and because it's literally against the law, and for good reason. Go live in a border town and then tell me how open borders work.
I've been to border towns, I live in Texas and my work takes me all the way to the border many times. Can't say I noticed more crime there honestly. Do you live in one? If so, perhaps you have a perspective I don't. Or did you just read it somewhere? If so, where?

Anyway, you still haven't provided what danger illegal immigrants pose. "They commit crimes" needs to be backed up because citizens commit crimes too.

Otherwise the argument is it's against the law because the law says so, which is circular reasoning at best. I ask WHY is it against the law?

My take is the reason it's against the law is because it's a form of institutionalized racism against "the other" who can take the form of anyone from people with darker skin to people of different faiths. It has been around so long and enforced so long that many just don't recognize it. And it's justified because it's always been that way. There's no good reason for it and it is my belief that it should simply go away.
User avatar
ProfessorDetective
Captain
Posts: 1466
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:40 pm
Location: Oak Ridge, TN, USA

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by ProfessorDetective »

Better put than I ever could.
User avatar
Robovski
Captain
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:32 pm
Location: Checked out of here

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by Robovski »

I disagree with the law and it should go away does not wish away the law, or make you right in disagreeing. Controlling who enters and leaves a country has become more important than ever and it is not wrong to have a legal procedure for immigration to a country.
User avatar
ProfessorDetective
Captain
Posts: 1466
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:40 pm
Location: Oak Ridge, TN, USA

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by ProfessorDetective »

Robovski wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:39 pm I disagree with the law and it should go away does not wish away the law, or make you right in disagreeing. Controlling who enters and leaves a country has become more important than ever and it is not wrong to have a legal procedure for immigration to a country.
Fair enough. But they've tried to make that process so restrictive that jumping through all the hoops takes a damn legal team, which most of the poor people just trying to find a more stable place to call home can't afford.

Yes, we do need background checks to weed out the criminals, not going to argue that, but there's a point where it turns from 'reasonable caution' to ' looking for any excuse to deny them entry'. Which is often why they go through the (oddly still open) visa loophole.

Honestly, if they're THAT paranoid about entire cartels and terrorist cells getting in, why ARE they issuing visas with so few hurdles? That feels inconsistent.
Darth Wedgius
Captain
Posts: 2948
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:43 pm

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by Darth Wedgius »

As I've said before, I want immigration restricted so that immigrants assimilate. I don't care how much melanin you have in your skin, but I'm not a multiculturalist.
User avatar
Robovski
Captain
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:32 pm
Location: Checked out of here

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by Robovski »

And I am for a lot more legal immigration and an easier process, I know it took me a year and a $500 (in 1998) fee to get a VISA emigrate to the UK and then many more hoops after I got there - and I just married a UK citizen. Legal immigrants don't need to have processes perverted to keep everyone in the legal framework of taxes and licensing (such as having a driver's license or insurance) and helps avoid companies hiring workers they do not report on their payroll.
Fuzzy Necromancer
Overlord
Posts: 6303
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:57 am

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

Robovski wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 1:37 am And I am for a lot more legal immigration and an easier process, I know it took me a year and a $500 (in 1998) fee to get a VISA emigrate to the UK and then many more hoops after I got there - and I just married a UK citizen.
Lucky you. The U S of A has things so slow that many people get their legal citizen status posthumously. Waiting time is in decades, not years, during which you enjoy a legal limbo with all the liabilities and none of the privileges.

If the turnstyle isn't working, even after you swipe it a hundred times, eventually people will start jumping it. The solution is not to set lots of men with AK47s in the subway station.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
User avatar
JoeThree
Officer
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:12 pm

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by JoeThree »

Eishtmo wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:48 pm I know guys, but I am trying to have a discussion rather than shut this out entirely. I'll try to stay civil.
JoeThree wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:03 am Don't be pedantic, YOU called it racist. Tell me, which race were you thinking was being denied citizenship today? The Irish? Don't play stupid.
The definition of "race" has changed over the years. Once it simply where you were from, so races could be what we call nationalities. Irish, Greek, German, Italian, were all races to the people at the time. That really didn't change until the 20th century. Just because the current, very flawed, definition groups skin color by race (except Jews for some reason, never understood that), doesn't mean it didn't have a different definition before.

And again, I didn't say Mexican, you did. The fact that most undocumented immigrants are people who overstay student or work visas, and are likely from India or Pakistan, seems to have escaped your notice. Or that those who cross the border are more likely to be from further south (Panama, Nicaragua, etc) rather than Mexico.
We have legal immigration so we can vet the people who come into our country and ensure they're not just going to leech off our benefits or commit acts of crime. We don't need illegals hopping the border because they can't be arsed to do things the right way.
"We don't want your kind around here." Also ignores the fact that undocumented immigrants typically cannot receive government benefits (no social security number, kind of needed for most of them). At the same time, they still buy things and thus pay sales taxes, so they have to pay in but get nothing. And I would need to see crime stats to back that immigrants commit more crime. Do you have any? It's your argument, so you need to support it.
And it's a crime to not be a citizen for the dangers they pose and because it's literally against the law, and for good reason. Go live in a border town and then tell me how open borders work.
I've been to border towns, I live in Texas and my work takes me all the way to the border many times. Can't say I noticed more crime there honestly. Do you live in one? If so, perhaps you have a perspective I don't. Or did you just read it somewhere? If so, where?

Anyway, you still haven't provided what danger illegal immigrants pose. "They commit crimes" needs to be backed up because citizens commit crimes too.

Otherwise the argument is it's against the law because the law says so, which is circular reasoning at best. I ask WHY is it against the law?

My take is the reason it's against the law is because it's a form of institutionalized racism against "the other" who can take the form of anyone from people with darker skin to people of different faiths. It has been around so long and enforced so long that many just don't recognize it. And it's justified because it's always been that way. There's no good reason for it and it is my belief that it should simply go away.
Don't start off with being pedantic and esoteric. We both know exactly what you meant. You're debating like a coward, hiding behind technicalities. You called anti-open borders people racist. As you said, in today's world race is determined by skin color, so if it's racist to oppose illegals, who is coming to America illegally - in large numbers - whose skin color is not white (which you just assumed I was).

It's illegal to be here without proper paperwork. Coming here is a crime. That makes all illegals (hence the term) criminals by default. They are a 100% criminal group. I don't need to link you numbers, you just need to use common sense.

If you can't understand why walls and borders are good, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. I hope you leave your door open and unlocked every night when you sleep.

I'm from NY, by the way, and let me tell you this: If we had less immigration with better regulations, there'd still be 3,000+ of my fellow statesmen alive, and Covid-19 wouldn't have decimated coastal states the way it has.

Look at the world, as a whole, objectively for once. It's not a nice place.
Fuzzy Necromancer
Overlord
Posts: 6303
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:57 am

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

JoeThree wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:10 am I'm from NY, by the way, and let me tell you this: If we had less immigration with better regulations, there'd still be 3,000+ of my fellow statesmen alive, and Covid-19 wouldn't have decimated coastal states the way it has.
Y I K E S
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
User avatar
BridgeConsoleMasher
Overlord
Posts: 11631
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:18 am

Re: Undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than president 45

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

source on that? lol
..What mirror universe?
Post Reply