Dragon Ball Super vs. DC Comics and Marvel Comics Debate

[Captain Crimson]

So in other words you are just ignoring all of the canon facts and evidence because you don't like them.

Did you even read what I wrote past focusing on one area of my argument you disliked? I said going with the OPM joke logic, don't think things through so much, Goku wins here. It's something even Mr. Toriyama has said himself, that to nitpick is overthinking things too much. My point of contention was that the universe they are attempting to portray operates much differently than it does IRL because if you want to nitpick, then you need to focus on the details, and you begin to see that the physics don't hold up.

For example, I already accept DBS characters are many orders of magnitude FTL, and that they've been FTL since DBZ. I don't see any issue here, plot wise. But going with fan nitpicking, that opens up some interesting questions. If they are moving at FTL speeds, then IRL, as you approach the speed of light, time slows down. So why is it when they start brawling with each other, that when they emerge back from their accelerated states, that several millennia have not passed them by? RL science states that is precisely what would happen. You have to suspend your disbelief to some extent with a genre like DB, but people have their own interpretations on where that is.

Ironically, since your main point of disagreement was that they have infinite power, going with RL physics, you can make a strong case for dimensional tiering. That to be able to travel at FTL speeds would indeed prove they have infinite power, since you require infinite energy to travel at, well, just 1 c, and they are many millions of times c, to go with a lowball figure. Hence why my way of thinking here parallel what STP says, that Goku is either 4-D, or infinite 4-D, but that's the extent of it. Grand Zeno, for example, would be, at best, low 5-D.

What is that even supposed to me? And show me the Enterprise making all of subspace shake at once or your analogy is useless.

Then it seems as if you just being willfully ignorant, my friend, sticking your fingers into your ears and saying, "LALALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" Because subspace is described as an infinite realm. Same as the World of Void, which is the point you brought up. The Q manipulate subspace. Similar to how Jiren and Goku shook the World of Void and changed its color palette.

Again, show me Q or anyone in Star Trek affecting all of subspace at once.

Subspace is embedded all through normal space across every infinite timeline out there. You would be required to have high levels of reality warping in order to take somebody back in time, have them deliberately change the timeline, then move them forward into a changed timeline that is nearly the perfect identical replica of the timeline that had existed prior except to the person in question, with their whole character history altered. That is time manipulation, space manipulation, and memory manipulation in basically rewriting the most basic laws of physics to bend to your whims.

With your logic, even touching one part of "infinity" is still infinity, so the very best you could argue for here is a statelmate. I mean, we see Future Zeno wipe out a timeline, and for RL physics, what we see does not hold up. He's just floating there in the void, yet the void has space, and the time capsule is able to travel there? How does that even work? Without space, there is no gravity, there can be no time, but we plainly see Future Zeno floating and moving through some type of warped space. It's just basic physics, friend, and it is why I'd said if you are going to nitpick as you seem wont to try and do, adhere to RL physics, but if not, then just go with the OPM joke style that there is no logic, so he solos, GG NO RE. Which is kind of what you're doing in the first place.

That's a lie.

What is the lie, precisely? Because I most certainly did not lie. You just seem to have a different interpretation.

[SSJGodGoku]

So in other words you are just ignoring all of the canon facts and evidence because you don't like them.

Did you even read what I wrote past focusing on one area of my argument you disliked? I said going with the OPM joke logic, don't think things through so much, Goku wins here. It's something even Mr. Toriyama has said himself, that to nitpick is overthinking things too much. My point of contention was that the universe they are attempting to portray operates much differently than it does IRL because if you want to nitpick, then you need to focus on the details, and you begin to see that the physics don't hold up.

Of course real life physics don't hold up. That doesn't mean you can't compare feats.

Ironically, since your main point of disagreement was that they have infinite power, going with RL physics, you can make a strong case for dimensional tiering. That to be able to travel at FTL speeds would indeed prove they have infinite power, since you require infinite energy to travel at, well, just 1 c, and they are many millions of times c, to go with a lowball figure. Hence why my way of thinking here parallel what STP says, that Goku is either 4-D, or infinite 4-D, but that's the extent of it. Grand Zeno, for example, would be, at best, low 5-D.

'Dimensional tiering' is nonsense invented by vsbattles wiki.

Then it seems as if you just being willfully ignorant, my friend, sticking your fingers into your ears and saying, "LALALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" Because subspace is described as an infinite realm. Same as the World of Void, which is the point you brought up. The Q manipulate subspace. Similar to how Jiren and Goku shook the World of Void and changed its color palette.

Are you honestly not getting this? It isn't an infinite feat just because the World of Void exists and is infinite. It's an infinite feat because they shook the entire infinity of it at once by powering up.

Subspace can be infinite too, but it doesn't mean jack unless there is a feat of someone or something manipulating all of it at once like that.

Subspace is embedded all through normal space across every infinite timeline out there. You would be required to have high levels of reality warping in order to take somebody back in time, have them deliberately change the timeline, then move them forward into a changed timeline that is nearly the perfect identical replica of the timeline that had existed prior except to the person in question, with their whole character history altered. That is time manipulation, space manipulation, and memory manipulation in basically rewriting the most basic laws of physics to bend to your whims.

Completely irrelevant to what I was asking for.

With your logic, even touching one part of "infinity" is still infinity, so the very best you could argue for here is a statelmate.

That makes no sense. Just because subspace is infinite, it's not an infinite feat to create a bubble of it around a ship to go to warp speed, because the size of that bubble is finite. It's not even an infinite feat to manipulate all of the subspace in the entire universe at once, because, once again, that is just a finite part of it.

It would only be analogous if there was a feat of manipulating all of subspace at once, in every universe everywhere. That has never happened.

What is the lie, precisely? Because I most certainly did not lie. You just seem to have a different interpretation.

It's a lie that any writer with any authority was asked if Goku could destroy the universe and said no.

[SSJGodGoku]

Think of it this way:

Say that there is a group consisting of an infinite number of objects (we'll just say apples for the heck of it).

Now someone is able to move all of those apples at once. That is a demonstration of infinite strength.

What you're saying is that if there is a second group of infinite apples, but someone only picks up 2 or 3 of them at a time, that makes him just as strong as the guy who moved all of the infinite apples at once.

[Captain Crimson]

Of course real life physics don't hold up. That doesn't mean you can't compare feats.

No, that's not how it works. Comparing feats is nitpicking, and thus you have to have some degree of fidelity to RL physics. Either you just turn your brain off when you watch, or you try and analyze it. This is a forum for science-fiction, so how did you expect any less?

'Dimensional tiering' is nonsense invented by vsbattles wiki.

Seems as if you dislike it because it goes against your headcanon, and that it actually tries to put numbers to this stuff. Let me ask you this. Where is the World of Void supposed to be located? It's a realm of infinite nothingness, no time or no space, so... where is it located? How can an infinite non-space fit into a finite space? That does not hold up under scrutiny, and I'm a fan who actually accepts the infinity claims here. Lots of debaters can't even do that. See, for me, this would make a lot more sense if they'd just time-traveled to a point prior to the Big Bang, and then created a ring for them to fight there. It would explain everything.

Let me put it this way. How is dimensional tiering BS? I mean, we're in a much higher dimension than something at the planck level, given how small it is and how long it takes light to travel that distance in relative comparison, and the universe is at a much higher dimension than us given the sheer virtue of its size. Dimensional tiering from the VS Wiki uses RL physics to try and explain the feats going on. Yes, VS Wiki has issues of their own, but that is immaterial to this argument when the actual numbers hold up.

Are you honestly not getting this? It isn't an infinite feat just because the World of Void exists and is infinite. It's an infinite feat because they shook the entire infinity of it at once by powering up.

Subspace can be infinite too, but it doesn't mean jack unless there is a feat of someone or something manipulating all of it at once like that.

The very same logic could apply to subspace. And unlike the World of Void, subspace has actual details given for where it's located, that is to say, buried in the layers of the space-time continuum. We also only ever see a small area within the World of Void affected, so with a counterargument you could say the same thing you're trying to claim as to how manipulating subspace is limited. How about the fact the Q can shrink things down to subatomic proportions, casually travel back to before the Big Bang, and break the laws of causality?

Completely irrelevant to what I was asking for.

If you say so.

That makes no sense. Just because subspace is infinite, it's not an infinite feat to create a bubble of it around a ship to go to warp speed, because the size of that bubble is finite. It's not even an infinite feat to manipulate all of the subspace in the entire universe at once, because, once again, that is just a finite part of it.

It would only be analogous if there was a feat of manipulating all of subspace at once, in every universe everywhere. That has never happened.

How about this? In the TNG episode Where Silence Has Lease the area of space, to use a loose term, they are absorbed into is described as "the absence of everything." It has no time or space, like the World of Void. Nagillum is utterly bending that reality to his will to serve him and generating false sensor readings, creating a construct of their sister ship, impersonating crew members, and far more. No matter how far they traveled, they get nowhere. That is a void. And even if they could manipulate subspace, they could not influence Nagillum's void. Is there any doubt whatsoever in your mind that Q or multiple Q in conjunction could take on Nagillum? The Q are described as omnipotent and Death Wish showed us they were nigh-omniscient to a high degree, as there hadn't been anything to talk about in the continuum for millennia. If Q is to be believed he also resurrected Picard from death and whipped him back into time. That's like Whis reality warping. Do you think Goku could defeat Whis?

It's a lie that any writer with any authority was asked if Goku could destroy the universe and said no.

TBF, I saw it on an online vid, and I can't remember where, so very possibly you are right. But my larger contention that different writers have different interpretations is still valid.

[SSJGodGoku]

Of course real life physics don't hold up. That doesn't mean you can't compare feats.

No, that's not how it works. Comparing feats is nitpicking, and thus you have to have some degree of fidelity to RL physics. Either you just turn your brain off when you watch, or you try and analyze it. This is a forum for science-fiction, so how did you expect any less?

Comparing feats and powerscaling are the only ways to do this kind of debate.

Seems as if you dislike it because it goes against your headcanon, and that it actually tries to put numbers to this stuff.

No, I dislike it because it's ad hoc bullshit that just invents imaginary 'tiers', completely ignoring the facts that dimensions are treated differently in different fictional series.

Let me ask you this. Where is the World of Void supposed to be located? It's a realm of infinite nothingness, no time or no space, so... where is it located? How can an infinite non-space fit into a finite space? That does not hold up under scrutiny, and I'm a fan who actually accepts the infinity claims here. Lots of debaters can't even do that. See, for me, this would make a lot more sense if they'd just time-traveled to a point prior to the Big Bang, and then created a ring for them to fight there. It would explain everything.

It's not 'located' anywhere. It just is.

Let me put it this way. How is dimensional tiering BS? I mean, we're in a much higher dimension than something at the planck level, given how small it is and how long it takes light to travel that distance in relative comparison, and the universe is at a much higher dimension than us given the sheer virtue of its size. Dimensional tiering from the VS Wiki uses RL physics to try and explain the feats going on. Yes, VS Wiki has issues of their own, but that is immaterial to this argument when the actual numbers hold up.

No it doesn't, it just arbitrarily claims certain characters are 'X-dimensional' and that makes them better or worse than those that are 'X-1' or 'X+1' dimensional, with no actual justification for claiming this kind of thing. An object one Planck length long isn't in a 'different dimension' from an object the size of the universe. That's not remotely what the word dimension even means.

The very same logic could apply to subspace. And unlike the World of Void, subspace has actual details given for where it's located, that is to say, buried in the layers of the space-time continuum. We also only ever see a small area within the World of Void affected

It was directly stated that they shook the entire infinite World of Void. Stop ignoring evidence.

so with a counterargument you could say the same thing you're trying to claim as to how manipulating subspace is limited. How about the fact the Q can shrink things down to subatomic proportions, casually travel back to before the Big Bang, and break the laws of causality?

How does any of that mean that all of subspace was being manipulated at once?

How about this? In the TNG episode Where Silence Has Lease the area of space, to use a loose term, they are absorbed into is described as "the absence of everything." It has no time or space, like the World of Void. Nagillum is utterly bending that reality to his will to serve him and generating false sensor readings, creating a construct of their sister ship, impersonating crew members, and far more. No matter how far they traveled, they get nowhere. That is a void.

But it wasn't infinite in size. In fact it was explicitly shown to be finite, since they dropped a probe and flew in one direction, then encountered the same probe they dropped after a while. That means it was a curved space, like a hypersphere, that doubles back on itself. That is a finite volume. You could measure the size of this void by estimating the distance the ship traveled before it returned to its own probe. Given known warp speeds, that would make it a few light-years in diameter at most.

And even if they could manipulate subspace, they could not influence Nagillum's void. Is there any doubt whatsoever in your mind that Q or multiple Q in conjunction could take on Nagillum? The Q are described as omnipotent and Death Wish showed us they were nigh-omniscient to a high degree, as there hadn't been anything to talk about in the continuum for millennia.

They would powerscale to above him, but as I pointed out, his feat isn't impressive.

If Q is to be believed he also resurrected Picard from death and whipped him back into time. That's like Whis reality warping. Do you think Goku could defeat Whis?

Whis can beat Goku because he is faster, stronger, has more ki, and has permanent Ultra Instinct. Not because he can do certain tricks that Goku can't do.

Shenron (even just the original Shenron) can bring back the dead, warp reality, and do anything Q could do. King Piccolo killed him effortlessly with a single blast.

Even Fortune Teller Baba can 'resurrect people from death' too, do you think she can beat Goku because of that?

In Dragonball, it doesn't matter how many cheap and fancy tricks you can do, they are all worthless against someone who is much stronger than you. Shenron can create matter from nothing, make it vanish, bring back the dead, completely restore the Earth after Buu destroyed it, teleport anything anywhere in the universe instantly, erase and change the memories of everyone on Earth, reverse time by making elderly characters young again, and much more. But when asked to kill Nappa and Vegeta, he couldn't, because they were too powerful. Same thing when he was asked to turn 17 and 18 back into humans.

Q would be absolutely helpless to do a thing to Goku.

[Captain Crimson]

Comparing feats and powerscaling are the only ways to do this kind of debate.

No, that's the definition of nitpicking. How do you not see this?

No, I dislike it because it's ad hoc bullshit that just invents imaginary 'tiers', completely ignoring the facts that dimensions are treated differently in different fictional series.

I'm actually surprised you know the word ad hoc. Yet it absolutely conforms to DBZ's style, which is about tiers of power. New levels. Like Pokemon. Level 1, level 2, level 3... with infinite potential.

It's not 'located' anywhere. It just is.

In other words, "Because I say so!" The burden of proof is on you to prove the nonsensical physics DBS puts out can stand up under greater scrutiny compared to the goofy sciences ST has sometimes put out. Where is it located? You don't know, do you?

No it doesn't, it just arbitrarily claims certain characters are 'X-dimensional' and that makes them better or worse than those that are 'X-1' or 'X+1' dimensional, with no actual justification for claiming this kind of thing. An object one Planck length long isn't in a 'different dimension' from an object the size of the universe. That's not remotely what the word dimension even means.

I stand by my statement that you dislike it because it conflicts with your headcanon. Also, dimension:

di·men·sion
/dəˈmen(t)SH(ə)n,dīˈmen(t)SH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
a measurable extent of some kind, such as length, breadth, depth, or height.
"the final dimensions of the pond were 14 ft. x 8 ft"
Similar:
proportions
measurements
extent
size
length
width
breadth
depth
area
volume
capacity
footage
acreage
2.
an aspect or feature of a situation, problem, or thing.
"sun-dried tomatoes add a new dimension to this sauce"
Similar:
aspect
feature
element
facet
side
verb
form or shape (something) to particular measurements.
"the seats and backrests are dimensioned to withstand high loads from items such as unsecured luggage"

So under this definition, yes, a planck unit is a very tiny dimension. Quantum foam at that level is theorized to be miniature universes all on their own.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/j5yngp/the-universe-is-made-of-tiny-bubbles-containing-mini-universes-scientists-say

So how do you know the "infinite" World of Void within the finite space of the twelve universes are of a normal size? From our perspective, they can be universes that are the size of a little speck of dust, or smaller.

It was directly stated that they shook the entire infinite World of Void. Stop ignoring evidence.

I'm not ignoring evidence when I already said I accept the infinite feat here, but your case of willful ignorance in refusing to accept the same logic for other verses seems to suggest to me you're going off on a case of severe confirmation bias.

How does any of that mean that all of subspace was being manipulated at once?

It was to illustrate that the same argument you're using could be applied somewhere else.

But it wasn't infinite in size. In fact it was explicitly shown to be finite, since they dropped a probe and flew in one direction, then encountered the same probe they dropped after a while. That means it was a curved space, like a hypersphere, that doubles back on itself. That is a finite volume. You could measure the size of this void by estimating the distance the ship traveled before it returned to its own probe. Given known warp speeds, that would make it a few light-years in diameter at most.

And you have proof of this, how? There is literally nothing they say which implies it's finite in size, you just assume it is, and yeah, firing away a probe into a void, and then encountering it a short time later... how does that disprove that the void is infinite in size and displays the same characteristics of the World of Void - a realm with no space and time? Nothing says the distance the probe traveled was the limit and that it may even have been steered there by Nagillum as a part of his experiments. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove it is finite. Which is what you've been claiming I should do, when I already accept the infinite argument for the World of Void, but I do not accept that it makes them literally omnipotent as you are claiming.

Since you're using the most egregious example of a no-limits fallacy I have ever witnessed, let me give you one of my own. The Q in the civil war were shown to be damaged by Q weapons, but that's all that could ever hurt them, and any instances where mortals were doing so, was in the version of the continuum made manifest for them to enter and to be able to comprehend. Thus, to any others but a Q, they are immortal. Cannot be killed. They have always existed. That's as much BS as you're trying to give me, and so how the H could Goku beat an immortal being?

They would powerscale to above him, but as I pointed out, his feat isn't impressive.

Riiiiight.

Whis can beat Goku because he is faster, stronger, has more ki, and has permanent Ultra Instinct. Not because he can do certain tricks that Goku can't do.

Whis beats him because he has hax, which is what the Q have on a much higher plane of reality. Like I said, they exist on a tier so far above us they have to scale down the continuum to be comprehensible to mortals. And for all you know, the Q continuum may be a universe that is far bigger than ours is by several million orders of magnitude. Quantum mechanics has posited several theories about that. How do you not know? Nothing is said that it is not, so by your logic, it could be infinite in size as well. And the Q civil war was also damaging subspace to the point it would have damaged it beyond repair. Yes, Goku and Jiren shook the World of Void. Could they destroy it completely? You're really behaving like one of those fanboys who say that just because we don't see Cell destroy a solar system, it means he can't. In reverse.

Shenron (even just the original Shenron) can bring back the dead, warp reality, and do anything Q could do. King Piccolo killed him effortlessly with a single blast.

Factually incorrect. Shenron cannot send people back into time. He's never shown it, and it would cause a paradox. Shenron has shown to have very clear limits while the Q pop up all over the universe and across various timelines they reconfigure at their whim. What happens if Shenron wished back to a point before he existed and is asked to contradict it? Wish he had never existed? How does that hold up?

Even Fortune Teller Baba can 'resurrect people from death' too, do you think she can beat Goku because of that?

Not true. She just brings people from the afterlife back to the mortal realm. You're really grasping at straws now.

In Dragonball, it doesn't matter how many cheap and fancy tricks you can do, they are all worthless against someone who is much stronger than you. Shenron can create matter from nothing, make it vanish, bring back the dead, completely restore the Earth after Buu destroyed it, teleport anything anywhere in the universe instantly, erase and change the memories of everyone on Earth, reverse time by making elderly characters young again, and much more. But when asked to kill Nappa and Vegeta, he couldn't, because they were too powerful. Same thing when he was asked to turn 17 and 18 back into humans.

Shenron was asked to locate the Super Dragon Balls, and couldn't do it. That debunks your assertion right there.

Q would be absolutely helpless to do a thing to Goku.

Traveling back to a point before the Big Bang, when space itself didn't exist, hadn't even begun expanding yet, and renders concepts like space and time meaningless, when there's no energy, no background radiation or other radiant heat, no molecules, no atoms, no gravity, no universal forces that we have in the universe today taking place is like a far better feat than what you're suggesting, and at least puts one of them ON PAR with Goku. I'm getting the sense you believe that Goku could stomp all the Q on his own, even if there were a thousand of them.

[SSJGodGoku]

Comparing feats and powerscaling are the only ways to do this kind of debate.

No, that's the definition of nitpicking. How do you not see this?

It's the only way to actually measure things in a way approaching objectivity. Everything else is just subjective, arbitrary nonsense.

I'm actually surprised you know the word ad hoc. Yet it absolutely conforms to DBZ's style, which is about tiers of power. New levels. Like Pokemon. Level 1, level 2, level 3... with infinite potential.

It just makes them up out of nowhere, as if there is some universal scale that applies to every different series. Since you like talking about Star Trek so much, look at the TNG episode "The Loss". The Enterprise was helpless against beings that were only 2 dimensional. According to vsbattles system, that should have been impossible, because 3 dimensional always beats 2 dimensional.

Classifying characters into tiers is fine, but it has to be based on something that can be actually measured and is consistent, hence feats and powerscaling. Not just saying 'Well this guy is 9 dimensional, and this other guy is 16 dimensional' without defining what that even means. Any fictional story can say that something has a billion trillion dimensions, but that doesn't actually mean anything without context.

In other words, "Because I say so!" The burden of proof is on you to prove the nonsensical physics DBS puts out can stand up under greater scrutiny compared to the goofy sciences ST has sometimes put out. Where is it located? You don't know, do you?

You're assuming everything has to be located in a 3-dimensional space. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that someone who subscribes to vsbattles' 'dimensional tiering' bullshit doesn't know how actual dimensions work.

I stand by my statement that you dislike it because it conflicts with your headcanon.

It's not even a coherent concept. The only people who believe it is are gullible idiots who just assume that it somehow makes sense because they never actually try to figure out for themselves if it does or not.

So under this definition, yes, a planck unit is a very tiny dimension. Quantum foam at that level is theorized to be miniature universes all on their own.

No you moron, it's a unit of length. A 1-dimensional line 1 planck length long and a 1-dimensional line a billion light-years long are both one-dimensional. A 2-dimensional square measuring a billion light-years on each side is no more 'higher dimensional' than such a square measuring only a planck length on each side. Or a cube, and so on.

So how do you know the "infinite" World of Void within the finite space of the twelve universes are of a normal size? From our perspective, they can be universes that are the size of a little speck of dust, or smaller.

First of all, that's a pointless question without anything to back it up. I might as well ask how do you know all of Marvel and DC don't take place on a single atom in one of Master Roshi's porn magazines.

Secondly, infinity is infinity. Infinite length, width, and height = infinite volume.

I'm not ignoring evidence when I already said I accept the infinite feat here, but your case of willful ignorance in refusing to accept the same logic for other verses seems to suggest to me you're going off on a case of severe confirmation bias.

I'm engaged in two debates right now. One of them on another forum is with a flat earther, and he is making more logical points than you are.

Let me try and explain this again: There is no double standard. I have no problem accepting that subspace is infinite, since it was stated to be infinite. The issue is that there are no feats of anyone doing anything that affects all of it at once, like there is for the World of Void.

It was to illustrate that the same argument you're using could be applied somewhere else.

Well you obviously failed to do so, as none of that indicates all of subspace being affected at once.

And you have proof of this, how? There is literally nothing they say which implies it's finite in size, you just assume it is, and yeah, firing away a probe into a void, and then encountering it a short time later... how does that disprove that the void is infinite in size and displays the same characteristics of the World of Void - a realm with no space and time? Nothing says the distance the probe traveled was the limit and that it may even have been steered there by Nagillum as a part of his experiments. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove it is finite. Which is what you've been claiming I should do, when I already accept the infinite argument for the World of Void, but I do not accept that it makes them literally omnipotent as you are claiming.

The probe didn't move. The Enterprise looped around, after traveling a finite distance, like if you move around the circumference of a circle. That's pretty strong evidence it's not infinite. If you travel in one direction in the World of Void, you will never return to your starting point.

Burden of proof is on the positive claim BTW so you would have to prove that space was infinite, not just make up bullshit like 'Well Nagilum might have been trying to trick them into thinking it wasn't infinite by moving the probe around'.

I accepted subspace was infinite because it was directly stated by a reliable source. No such evidence exists here, and there is observational evidence against it.

Since you're using the most egregious example of a no-limits fallacy I have ever witnessed, let me give you one of my own. The Q in the civil war were shown to be damaged by Q weapons, but that's all that could ever hurt them, and any instances where mortals were doing so, was in the version of the continuum made manifest for them to enter and to be able to comprehend. Thus, to any others but a Q, they are immortal. Cannot be killed. They have always existed. That's as much BS as you're trying to give me, and so how the H could Goku beat an immortal being?

Vegeto would have killed the immortal Zamasu by destroying him completely beyond his ability to recover, but only didn't because the fusion wore off faster than they expected. BTW Qs have been trapped inside a comet, punched out by a human, and killed by a tornado.

Also scaling by feats is not a fallacy. If one side has feats on an infinite scale, that means they have infinite power. Your side doesn't.

Riiiiight.

Exactly right. Your only counter was 'well maybe it actually was infinite but Nagilum was just fucking around with them to make it look like it wasn't.' Excuse me if I don't buy that.

Whis beats him because he has hax, which is what the Q have on a much higher plane of reality.

No. 'Hax' is irrelevant in Dragonball. At most tricky techniques can get you a win against someone slightly stronger than you, but if the gap is too great, no type of special power or ability will matter. It will simply fail to work on an overwhelmingly stronger opponent. Jiren's power was stated to be beyond the concept of time itself, for example, and that wasn't even at his full power.

Like I said, they exist on a tier so far above us they have to scale down the continuum to be comprehensible to mortals. And for all you know, the Q continuum may be a universe that is far bigger than ours is by several million orders of magnitude. Quantum mechanics has posited several theories about that. How do you not know? Nothing is said that it is not, so by your logic, it could be infinite in size as well.

Are all you have arguments from ignorance? 'It could be X, it could be Y'. Yeah, and I could be the King of England. Try showing actual proof. We have in-universe confirmation that the World of Void is infinite in size, and Goku and Jiren shook all of it.

And the Q civil war was also damaging subspace to the point it would have damaged it beyond repair.

In the Delta quadrant only. Never was it stated to extend beyond that. Even if it meant subspace across the whole universe, that's still nothing to do with all of the subspace in your 285,000 timelines. Besides, Q just said it would be beyond repair to his race. And as they have no feats on an infinite scale, that means you can't prove it wouldn't be more then finite damage.

Yes, Goku and Jiren shook the World of Void. Could they destroy it completely? You're really behaving like one of those fanboys who say that just because we don't see Cell destroy a solar system, it means he can't. In reverse.

Why couldn't they? Goku shook the entire Earth by powering up to SSJ3, but much weaker characters could destroy the Earth. So if anything, shaking it just by powering up is more impressive than destroying it.

Factually incorrect. Shenron cannot send people back into time.

And you know this how? He was never asked to.

He's never shown it, and it would cause a paradox.

No it wouldn't. Time travel happens many times in Dragonball. It creates an alternate timeline, unless someone as powerful as a God of Destruction changes the timeline directly. But even that won't alter the timeline of someone with a Time Ring.

Shenron has shown to have very clear limits

The only limits are characters far more powerful than him, showing that such abilities are useless against pure power.

while the Q pop up all over the universe and across various timelines they reconfigure at their whim. What happens if Shenron wished back to a point before he existed and is asked to contradict it? Wish he had never existed? How does that hold up?

When has Q made himself never exist?

Shenron was able to restore King Piccolo and the Pilaf gang to the bodies they had when they were younger. That is reversing time. If you wished for Shenron to send you back in time 100 years, or to bring a person from 100 years ago into the present, there is no doubt he could do it. In fact he has done things like that several times in the various video games, like Xenoverse when a wish is used to summon the Future Warrior, who is, as his name implies, from the future. And the plot of Xenoverse was written by Toriyama himself.

Not true. She just brings people from the afterlife back to the mortal realm. You're really grasping at straws now.

How is that different? They're still technically dead, but the result is the same. Old Kaioshin could also bring Goku back to life permanently, but Goku considered him a weakling.

Shenron was asked to locate the Super Dragon Balls, and couldn't do it. That debunks your assertion right there.

The Super Dragonballs are spread out across multiple universes. One of them was even in a space outside of any universe. Show me Q having no difficulty finding something spread across many universes. In fact in the episode Death Wish they took a while to find Quinn who was hiding just in different places in one universe.

Traveling back to a point before the Big Bang, when space itself didn't exist, hadn't even begun expanding yet, and renders concepts like space and time meaningless, when there's no energy, no background radiation or other radiant heat, no molecules, no atoms, no gravity, no universal forces that we have in the universe today taking place is like a far better feat than what you're suggesting, and at least puts one of them ON PAR with Goku. I'm getting the sense you believe that Goku could stomp all the Q on his own, even if there were a thousand of them.

Do you think a thousand Shenrons being asked to kill Goku simultaneously could somehow do it when one couldn't? It's an issue of quality, not quantity.

[Captain Crimson]

I'm just going to stop posting here. I think it's clear to see it is a lost cause, you won't be budged, and I have much better things to do with my time than waste it running down long chunks of paragraphs that won't go anywhere. The second you claimed a Flat Earther was making more logical points than I was, I saw the gig was up. So given all your past remarks, go ahead and treat this as the huge win you no doubt will see it as. Take it as you want and do whatever victory dance you feel is appropriate. I'm done here. Out.

[clearspira]

I'm just going to stop posting here. I think it's clear to see it is a lost cause, you won't be budged, and I have much better things to do with my time than waste it running down long chunks of paragraphs that won't go anywhere. The second you claimed a Flat Earther was making more logical points than I was, I saw the gig was up. So given all your past remarks, go ahead and treat this as the huge win you no doubt will see it as. Take it as you want and do whatever victory dance you feel is appropriate. I'm done here. Out.

Good call. This was a toxic thread to begin with which is why everyone stopped posting in it. I very much wish it was not bumped.

[SSJGodGoku]

I'm just going to stop posting here. I think it's clear to see it is a lost cause, you won't be budged, and I have much better things to do with my time than waste it running down long chunks of paragraphs that won't go anywhere. The second you claimed a Flat Earther was making more logical points than I was, I saw the gig was up. So given all your past remarks, go ahead and treat this as the huge win you no doubt will see it as. Take it as you want and do whatever victory dance you feel is appropriate. I'm done here. Out.

Considering your arguments were some of the worst yet, you were wise to cut your losses.