DS9: Honor Among Thieves

[SlackerinDeNile]

Now I haven't watched the review yet, nor have I seen this episode in a few years but I remember being entertained by it but not thoroughly enjoying it due to its pointlessness, cliches and slightly baffling outline.

I still to this day don't understand why O'Brien was allowed to take on an undercover role, isn't this kind of thing Section 31's job? I wasn't aware O'Brien had this kind of experience and training or that Starfleet allowed its officers to volunteer for operations completely different to their usual work whenever they felt like it. Are they the FBI or the the space police in this episode?

This episode also came out around the same time as Donnie Brasco and has a very similar plot to that film. I understand that the writers for DS9 loved to take inspiration from their favourite films and they did something similar with the episode 'Our man Bashir' when Goldeneye came out, although at least that episode had more context to it.

I might have more to say once I've checked out Chuck's views on it.

[GandALF]

Is that really the actor that played Darth Marr or does he just sound like him?

[Durandal_1707]

Chuck points out that this story could have been a TNG or Voyager episode, and you'd barely notice it. I'd go farther, and say that it would work a lot better as an episode of one of those series, because holy god, it makes no sense here.

1. The Orion Syndicate is working with the Vorta. Like hell they are. One of the things that makes fascism dangerously appealing to people is its focus on law and order, without having to worry about all those pesky rules that make law enforcement's job difficult. Having to go after Al Capone for tax evasion? Screw that, everyone knows he's guilty, why bother building a decent case in court? Just have our brownshirts march in and "disappear" the guy. Whack him, or put him in a secret prison somewhere never to see the light of day again, whatever. Boom, problem solved.

Basically, if the Orion Syndicate are helping the Dominion take over the galaxy, they are the dumbest crime ring ever. The chances of the Dominion allowing their operation to continue without an iron boot coming down on them 5 minutes after they take over are about 0.0000%.

2. The Federation diverts essential personnel from a critical outpost during wartime to fight a crime syndicate. Like hell they do. Can you imagine something like this happening during, say, World War II? Recalling officers from the European theater to fight the Mafia? And officers with no relevant training or experience, at that. In real life, the US worked with the Mafia in its effort to liberate Italy. Because when the stakes are that high, the rules are different. Hell, even Stalin can become an ally against a grave enough threat. There's no way that they'd actually take people away from the war effort to fight these lesser threats who, in all honesty, should be on our side, at least for now.

[GandALF]

1. The Orion Syndicate is working with the Vorta. Like hell they are. One of the things that makes fascism dangerously appealing to people is its focus on law and order, without having to worry about all those pesky rules that make law enforcement's job difficult. Having to go after Al Capone for tax evasion? Screw that, everyone knows he's guilty, why bother building a decent case in court? Just have our brownshirts march in and "disappear" the guy. Whack him, or put him in a secret prison somewhere never to see the light of day again, whatever. Boom, problem solved.

Basically, if the Orion Syndicate are helping the Dominion take over the galaxy, they are the dumbest crime ring ever. The chances of the Dominion allowing their operation to continue without an iron boot coming down on them 5 minutes after they take over are about 0.0000%.

To me the Dominion seems more like Plato's Kallipolis than Fascist. An unequal "utopia" to match the federation's equal "utopia". They likely don't have crime and/or don't understand crime the way Humans/feds do. So the Syndicate might have seem them as an easy mark. Or they might just be dumb criminals idk.

[FakeGeekGirl]

Chuck points out that this story could have been a TNG or Voyager episode, and you'd barely notice it. I'd go farther, and say that it would work a lot better as an episode of one of those series, because holy god, it makes no sense here.

1. The Orion Syndicate is working with the Vorta. Like hell they are. One of the things that makes fascism dangerously appealing to people is its focus on law and order, without having to worry about all those pesky rules that make law enforcement's job difficult. Having to go after Al Capone for tax evasion? Screw that, everyone knows he's guilty, why bother building a decent case in court? Just have our brownshirts march in and "disappear" the guy. Whack him, or put him in a secret prison somewhere never to see the light of day again, whatever. Boom, problem solved.

Basically, if the Orion Syndicate are helping the Dominion take over the galaxy, they are the dumbest crime ring ever. The chances of the Dominion allowing their operation to continue without an iron boot coming down on them 5 minutes after they take over are about 0.0000%.

2. The Federation diverts essential personnel from a critical outpost during wartime to fight a crime syndicate. Like hell they do. Can you imagine something like this happening during, say, World War II? Recalling officers from the European theater to fight the Mafia? And officers with no relevant training or experience, at that. In real life, the US worked with the Mafia in its effort to liberate Italy. Because when the stakes are that high, the rules are different. Hell, even Stalin can become an ally against a grave enough threat. There's no way that they'd actually take people away from the war effort to fight these lesser threats who, in all honesty, should be on our side, at least for now.

I can see the Dominion holding their nose and working with the Orion syndicate to get what they want ... and then disappear them into the night the moment they're in control of the Alpha Quadrant. But you're absolutely right the syndicate is dumb as shit for aligning with them, and Starfleet's priorities are really, really skewed for them to take time out of their war effort to try to deal with a crime synidcate. I could understand if they knew all along they were running guns for the Dominion but O'Brien's contact seemed really shocked that was the case. Maybe it was an act and they did suspect as much and that's why, but otherwise this is stupid.

[SlackerinDeNile]

Chuck points out that this story could have been a TNG or Voyager episode, and you'd barely notice it. I'd go farther, and say that it would work a lot better as an episode of one of those series, because holy god, it makes no sense here.

1. The Orion Syndicate is working with the Vorta. Like hell they are. One of the things that makes fascism dangerously appealing to people is its focus on law and order, without having to worry about all those pesky rules that make law enforcement's job difficult. Having to go after Al Capone for tax evasion? Screw that, everyone knows he's guilty, why bother building a decent case in court? Just have our brownshirts march in and "disappear" the guy. Whack him, or put him in a secret prison somewhere never to see the light of day again, whatever. Boom, problem solved.

Basically, if the Orion Syndicate are helping the Dominion take over the galaxy, they are the dumbest crime ring ever. The chances of the Dominion allowing their operation to continue without an iron boot coming down on them 5 minutes after they take over are about 0.0000%.

2. The Federation diverts essential personnel from a critical outpost during wartime to fight a crime syndicate. Like hell they do. Can you imagine something like this happening during, say, World War II? Recalling officers from the European theater to fight the Mafia? And officers with no relevant training or experience, at that. In real life, the US worked with the Mafia in its effort to liberate Italy. Because when the stakes are that high, the rules are different. Hell, even Stalin can become an ally against a grave enough threat. There's no way that they'd actually take people away from the war effort to fight these lesser threats who, in all honesty, should be on our side, at least for now.

Thank you, very well said.

I thought DS9 did a decent job of depicting an interstellar war between two super-powers, at least compared to some other examples, but the writers did occasionally make some major illogical slip ups like they did here.

Regarding The Orion Syndicate teaming up with the Dominion, I just presumed they didn't actually want to help the Dominion win the war and take over the Alpha quadrant but perhaps try and play both sides and profit off the war like the Ferengi would probably have liked to (and may have attempted for all we know.)

[Fixer]

Is that really the actor that played Darth Marr or does he just sound like him?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0363669/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

It is! Michael Harney.

Now I have to know whether Chuck managed to place the voice or did some insane research

[FaxModem1]

I still to this day don't understand why O'Brien was allowed to take on an undercover role, isn't this kind of thing Section 31's job? I wasn't aware O'Brien had this kind of experience and training or that Starfleet allowed its officers to volunteer for operations completely different to their usual work whenever they felt like it. Are they the FBI or the the space police in this episode?

No, Starfleet Intelligence is one of several organizations that do Intelligence for Starfleet and the Federation. I think their real world equivalent would be ONI, the Office of Naval Intelligence. S31 is equivalent to having your intelligence work done by a secret, independent militia/secret society. It always bugs me how Trek fans really assume that S31 really is part of the Federation government, and not a rogue arm of it. Odo was full of shit when he said they were the equivalent of the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order, as the Federation already has that with Federation Security, Vulcan Intelligence, and Starfleet Intelligence.

The reason why SI is involved is because Starfleet officers are working for the Syndicate.

Why they're hiring O'Brien for this mission? Because he's in the main cast. That's really it. Same reason why Picard, Crusher, and Worf are the ones going on a Black Ops mission in Chain of Command, or having Kirk steal the Romulan cloaking device in The Enterprise Incident.

If you want a Watsonian answer instead of a Doylist one, maybe it's because SI is stretched thin because of the war? Or it could be because Starfleet has overly focused on Jack's of All Trades and this practice has affected their intelligence capabilities?

Either way, O'brien really shouldn't be there, but he is so that they can have this episode.

[goodperson25]

No, Starfleet Intelligence is one of several organizations that do Intelligence for Starfleet and the Federation. I think their real world equivalent would be ONI, the Office of Naval Intelligence. S31 is equivalent to having your intelligence work done by a secret, independent militia/secret society. It always bugs me how Trek fans really assume that S31 really is part of the Federation government, and not a rogue arm of it. Odo was full of shit when he said they were the equivalent of the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order, as the Federation already has that with Federation Security, Vulcan Intelligence, and Starfleet Intelligence.

The reason why SI is involved is because Starfleet officers are working for the Syndicate.

Why they're hiring O'Brien for this mission? Because he's in the main cast. That's really it. Same reason why Picard, Crusher, and Worf are the ones going on a Black Ops mission in Chain of Command, or having Kirk steal the Romulan cloaking device in The Enterprise Incident.

If you want a Watsonian answer instead of a Doylist one, maybe it's because SI is stretched thin because of the war? Or it could be because Starfleet has overly focused on Jack's of All Trades and this practice has affected their intelligence capabilities?

Either way, O'brien really shouldn't be there, but he is so that they can have this episode.

While O'Brien specifically is there because he's a main character wasn't the reason for them involving an outsider like this was because the mole was ratting out the actual agents? (That does seem to indicate they initiated or kept up an operation on the syndicate during the dominion war) So while I'm not sure how the actual logistics and logic of that works I don't think it's an issue of not using SI operatives. Now barring my ignorance of supplementary material I mostly agree about section 31. (The comparison with the other races' agencies I think could still apply just not in the "it's the federation's intelligence service" sense)

[PerrySimm]

Well, now I'm curious how this might have turned out as a Jake episode. I'm curious how "Prodigal Daughter" would have turned out if this had been a Jake episode!

O'Brien is the best choice of the DS9 cast for this, and the theme of *family* really only fits for him. I mean, could you see Tom Paris doing this stuff?

As for "only on DS9", I generally agree with that sentiment: Three out of four Enterprise seasons were about as subtle as a fist on an eyeball, plainly incapable of telling a story this grey. Voyager had "Live Fast and Prosper" - a silly crime story with a happy ending. Can Voyager actually tell a tragic story, anyway?

That leaves TNG - "Gambit" is the first that comes to mind, but it was a flop in my opinion. But then there's "Preemptive Strike" - another story of heists, father figures, and divided loyalty. Hmmmm, maybe DS9 wasn't just copying a gangster movie.