TOS - Metamorphosis

[GreyICE]

Sure, but you also need to ask the question then why hasn't it happened on Earth?

Well first, it hasn't happened on earth because DNA-based life evolved. That serves to lock out other alternatives, because alternative organisms would have to deal with competition from DNA-based organisms while evolving.

Peter Watts wrote an interesting book, Arm of the Starfish, should give it a read. And it's worth noting he has a PhD and works with this stuff in his day job.

You're getting locked into a fallacy here, that evolution finds the best way. You must surely have noted that's not the case. We're running on a body template where we ingest solids, into our stomach, and that's directly next to our breathing tube, so sometimes the solids go down the wrong pipe and we die. And this happens literally thousands and thousands of times each year. It's a design flaw so unbelievably obvious it's on par with the Pinto's "gas tank in the trunk". But evolution is just concerned with "good enough".

The only thing you can know about things that didn't evolve is that they didn't evolve. That's literally it. Oh, and read the book (and Blindsight/Echopraxia). Brilliant author, diamond hard science fiction.

[RobbyB1982]

If two authors have both written good, but not great books, and want to improve on the novel, they don't go and merge the two novels together to see how the new novel would read. That's just confusing. So if you can imagine any other system of refinement and improvement, that is on the table.

Authors collaborate all the time and end up with stronger works than they would independantly... especially in visual field where you have things like a writer and artist team.

Now if your saying to just combine two finished novels, no, that doesn't work, but you don't just merge two finished people together either.

[GreyICE]

If two authors have both written good, but not great books, and want to improve on the novel, they don't go and merge the two novels together to see how the new novel would read. That's just confusing. So if you can imagine any other system of refinement and improvement, that is on the table.

Authors collaborate all the time and end up with stronger works than they would independantly... especially in visual field where you have things like a writer and artist team.

Now if your saying to just combine two finished novels, no, that doesn't work, but you don't just merge two finished people together either.

Right, that sort of collaboration where you combine the two and work to merge them into something better than either alone would be an example of an alternative process to evolution. You actually hit on something that's akin to Lamarkian inheritance. Although it's limited to two and presupposes something static like DNA so it's already making several assumptions, but it's still an idea of what could be out there.

And hell, what is actually out there may very well demonstrate our imagination was far too limited.

[Riedquat]

Sure, but you also need to ask the question then why hasn't it happened on Earth?

Well first, it hasn't happened on earth because DNA-based life evolved. That serves to lock out other alternatives, because alternative organisms would have to deal with competition from DNA-based organisms while evolving.

Plenty of niches around, plenty of variety. You raise a possibility but not necessarily a plausibility - feels like a cop-out explanation. It's not as if every environmental nook and cranny is only occupied by one species, and if not one species why not other forms of life too, if they're possible?

You're getting locked into a fallacy here, that evolution finds the best way. You must surely have noted that's not the case.

"Best" is a word that is entirely subjective. That said once again you're the one falling for a fallacy, not me. You're coming up with hand-wavey justifications for your position rather than anything more grounded - very much "it hasn't happened therefore X must be the case." The greater likelihood - and likelihood, not certainty, is if some other approach could've been more successful on the conditions we've got here then it would've occurred. Occam's Razor.

[GreyICE]

Again, as we already discussed, bacteria operate very differently. I've suggested some things for you to read, I recommend you take the time to read them.

Also, this might be the literal worst application of Occam's Razor I've ever seen in my life. Occam's razor does not state that "the simplest possible explanation is that every single possible way for life to form all occurred on earth simultaneously." That's the most complicated and inane explanation.

Did you think about the usage at all, or did you just type it as some sort of internet "I win" button? I mean Hanlon's Razor, I think we already know the answer.

[Fianna]

I'd also note, even if a species has sexual reproduction, that doesn't require different sexes. Hermaphrodites, anyone?

[Riedquat]

Again, as we already discussed, bacteria operate very differently. I've suggested some things for you to read, I recommend you take the time to read them.

Also, this might be the literal worst application of Occam's Razor I've ever seen in my life. Occam's razor does not state that "the simplest possible explanation is that every single possible way for life to form all occurred on earth simultaneously." That's the most complicated and inane explanation.

Did you think about the usage at all, or did you just type it as some sort of internet "I win" button? I mean Hanlon's Razor, I think we already know the answer.

The point of application of Occam's Razor and the implications. To come to the conclusion you did you'd have to have the cast-iron certainty that those other forms are even possible; the whole point about the Occam's Razor is that it points out that that's unlikely (not impossible) - in this case what we got was because that's all that's likely to occur. This is why you've been accused of making god of the gaps and appeal to ignorance style arguments.

The simplest explanation is that the most likely form of life is the one that appeared. The simplest explanation is that under the conditions we've got it's the only plausible form of life. As I pointed out those are based on "most likely" and "simplest", not "only." It is the basis of what I'm arguing for, and it's rather disappointing that you've responded to that by claiming I'm trying to press an "I win" button rather than looking at the argument being made. We have no evidence of any other forms of life existing, and whilst it's wise to keep our minds open to the possibility of others it's unwise to insist that we're completely ignorant and that they must be there and base your position around that until and unless evidence to suggest that actually is the case is discovered.

And drop the insults, they weaken rather than strengthen your argument.

[GreyICE]

god of the gaps

Welp, every now and then someone hops up and shows that Mark Twain is a prophet. Never open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[Riedquat]

You really don't know how to deal with someone arguing with you, do you? Now I admit I somehow thought someone else had responded with god of the gaps to one of your posts, which is why I raised it, and looking back I can't find it, so sorry for that one (edit - I mentioned it in a different thread, not sure why I'd got them confused). If you had politely pointed that out you'd give the impression you were interested in the discussion. Instead your response is, once again, to be obnoxious - in an amusingly ironic way mind you, although that clearly isn't your intent, although it does still further demonstrate that you probably don't actually understand what you're talking about properly (I'll give the possibility of the benefit of doubt that you do but are just poor at making a point). Otherwise you'd have something to sayof substance instead of latching on to one phrase.

[Petike]

I'll likely see about putting the original title version somewhere for historical purposes. Ironically, I can probably get away with posting the title only on Youtube, and the review only on Dailymotion, but not the whole thing on one or the other.

I'm very, very sorry you have to keep dodging so many copyright-related restrictions and copyright claims. I can imagine it's really, really frustrating.