DIS - Project Deadalus

[drewder]

Yeah, I feel like that's the distinction between "Mary Sue" and "hyper competent character". A hyper competent character can do amazing things, because they're hyper competent. Even if they occasionally strain credibility and belief, they're operating at superhuman capacity to do amazing things.

A Mary Sue discovers a time traveling AI plot to wipe out all life in the galaxy, and of COURSE the entire thing revolves around them.

I was actually pulling for it being Michael's birth mother, because her birth mother meddling to try and keep her daughter safe using stolen technology and whatever she could would have been an actually interesting plot. A time traveler looking over your shoulder and trying to nudge things back on course is a bit meh as a plot device, but it at least explains some of the fantastic things, and hey, if the acting and script are good I've watched worse. "Temporal Cold War" comes to mind.

Nope, it's Michael, because of course.

so where does tom paris fall on the mary sue spectrum?

[GreyICE]

so where does tom paris fall on the mary sue spectrum?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreatorsFavorite

The writers just liked writing for Tom Paris and Neelix (they were in fact incredibly proud of Neelix). So any time they wanted to have someone from the crew doing something, they'd find an excuse for it to be Tom Paris. Is Robert Duncan McNeill a great guy? Sure, everything I've seen says yes. So is Garrett Wong or Robert Beltran, again from what I've seen. So why him?

I honestly don't know. But any time they wanted to have someone from the ship doing something, they wanted Tom Paris in the scene. Of course Harry could have been the one learning medicine, or Belana, or Tuvok (Chakotay would be a stretch) but it was Tom Paris. So by the end of the show he'd done practically everything, while Berman told the writers to make Harry Kim less interesting to avoid overshadowing plots.

Seriously, try to find scenes with three or more Voyager crew members that don't involve Tom Paris (or swiftly come to involve Tom Paris). Especially pre-Seven, it's nearly impossible.

[chaos42]

personally i think that they should have made harry the medic -hes just out the academy hes young still has the mind set of someone learning and they could have said he had taken the basic and advanced med course for first aid and emergencies and so was picked to be the medic so he could learn, plus they should have done more with that, personally i think that one of the things the crew should be doing is expanding each of their skill sets. normally they can pick up mission specialists and such but now they only have what they have onboard, personally i would like to see them all using their time not just to relax but also to work on projects and teaching others what they know, for example tuvok given he was a teacher, should have been setting up course work for the non star fleet officers other than that one episode, and here is a thought what if people like belana finished their star fleet course work, and became a full officer not just a field commission. or have harry take the tests to go from ensign to lt junior grade. There is a lot they could do. But thats just my desire to see more like them fixing things or having to deal with supply problems or replacing something thats broken that they don't have a quick fix for. or integrating an alien console into the ship to save resources ect.

And thats the same problem with discovery, what have we learned about the crew, burnam, tilly, ash and saru have gotten focuse and are regular cast members, pike and lorka did but they are gone one was a temp and the other is probably in another reality as being stabbed and launched into the flaming ball of the fungis network doesn't mean he is dead. But none of the others have gotten much till now, and they kill the cyborg girl. We could have gotten more about her but instead all we got was this one episode. waste of potential ive wanted to know what her deal was exactly and now we know and now thats it.

star trek needs to work on expanding its characters roles like the girl with the implant that was with at the binary star with burnam =forgot her name, give her some episodes, have her work through her anger at burnam from causing what happened to her and the fact she has an implant in her head because of her actions. or have the doctor trying to work on it to make it less obvious like helping her grow more hair there to help cover it up because she hates that its there. Something

[FlynnTaggart]

so where does tom paris fall on the mary sue spectrum?

Not sure Tom could be considering a Gary/Mary Stu/Sue. Hyper competent, lots of screen time, and just plain good at most everything he does including failing (when he was fired on the planet with the labor shortage). However he is not the center of attention always, does not usually come up with the solutions, has flaws, and suffers the consequences of his actions.

Atleast from my understanding of what makes a Gary or Mary I'd say the Doctor or Seven would fall closer on the Sue Spectrum then Tom, certainly one can make the argument they took over the show, though even they I would not call true Sue's. If they are Sue's they fall low on the spectrum considering they do have flaws and consequences nor are they automatically loved usually.

Harry though he's like an anti-Mary Sue.

[chaos42]

harry is more of a bob

[CrypticMirror]

so where does tom paris fall on the mary sue spectrum?

Not sure Tom could be considering a Gary/Mary Stu/Sue. Hyper competent, lots of screen time, and just plain good at most everything he does including failing (when he was fired on the planet with the labor shortage). However he is not the center of attention always, does not usually come up with the solutions, has flaws, and suffers the consequences of his actions.

Atleast from my understanding of what makes a Gary or Mary I'd say the Doctor or Seven would fall closer on the Sue Spectrum then Tom, certainly one can make the argument they took over the show, though even they I would not call true Sue's. If they are Sue's they fall low on the spectrum considering they do have flaws and consequences nor are they automatically loved usually.

Harry though he's like an anti-Mary Sue.

The closest Voyager ever came to a Mary sue character was Janeway in the Jeri Taylor era, how many Janeway is always in the right stories did Chuck have to comment on? But even then, we moved on and Janeway became less always right and more reflective. Even in the Janeway is always right era, she still faced obstacles that she didn't always easily overcome. For all its faults, I don't think Voyager ever had a true Mary Sue character. I agree that Harry is the anti-Sue though.

harry is more of a bob

You dropped an "o" there.

[chaos42]

no i mean hes a bob as is that guy bob who sits around the office and no one is sure what hes doing most of the time a bob

[Makeshift Python]

I think the whole Mary Sue thing gets conflated by fans. I agree that the show is too centered on Burnham, but she's also too flawed of a person for me to see her as such. We see her having to deal with her own traumatic issues and make grave mistakes that get those she cares about hurt. Contrast that with Wesley, who just gets everything handed to him, and the only times he gets interesting is when the writer start showing him making mistakes like in "The First Duty".

So for me the only improvement DISCO can make at this point is to dial down on Burnham being the center of things and give more stuff for other characters. S2 was a small step towards that, giving bridge officers more of a personality, which they didn't seem to have during the first season. And if the announcement of STRANGE NEW WORLDS is any indication, the producers DO listen to the fans as giving Pike his own show was one of the big demands. Hopefully they've heard enough of the criticisms of Michael being too centered and will account for that with the third season.

[Link8909]

I think the whole Mary Sue thing gets conflated by fans. I agree that the show is too centered on Burnham, but she's also too flawed of a person for me to see her as such. We see her having to deal with her own traumatic issues and make grave mistakes that get those she cares about hurt. Contrast that with Wesley, who just gets everything handed to him, and the only times he gets interesting is when the writer start showing him making mistakes like in "The First Duty".

So for me the only improvement DISCO can make at this point is to dial down on Burnham being the center of things and give more stuff for other characters. S2 was a small step towards that, giving bridge officers more of a personality, which they didn't seem to have during the first season. And if the announcement of STRANGE NEW WORLDS is any indication, the producers DO listen to the fans as giving Pike his own show was one of the big demands. Hopefully they've heard enough of the criticisms of Michael being too centered and will account for that with the third season.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head here, like I said I personally like Michael Burnham, but even I would like the other characters to take centre stage, and having her so involved in these galaxy changing events is too much.

I'm glade that they resolved a lot of Michael's story by the end of Season 2, she no longer is driven by the guilt of her parents death, she isn't a pariah of Starfleet, the rift between her and Spock has been patched, has said her goodbyes to Ash Tyler, resolved the Red Angel plot and stop Control from destroying the galaxy (like I said I like Michael and I personally like some of these stories, but even I can see this is too much even for one main character), aside from a reunion with her mother, it looks like Season 3 will have a fresh start for Michael with opportunity for other characters to take centre stage and even move future overarching stories alone.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Let's bring this back to the actual episode instead of yet another "why I hate Discovery/modern Trek/etc." hatefest.

I feel like it's gonna be a long time before anyone wants to really talk about anything beyond their own gripes about the show in general.

Da sin mer dabei, dat is prihima.

In plain english: "I'm all for ignoring this whole 'I hate Discovery / modern trek" bullshit."
Because, if I'm honest: I don't hate any Trek / Wars / Who / Gate related - well, except Universe, that dark and gritty bad fanfic of Stargate.