Joe Arpaio pardon

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Yes, he's innocent until proven guilty...in LEGAL terms.

In actual, day-to-day life? He's as guilty as sin, mostly as he confesses to horrible atrocities in his own words. "Concentration camp". Did you even read the list? . It's plain as the nose on your face. And that our president would choose to pardon this man further cements how morally bankrupt he is.

When we did land Al Capone on tax evasion charges, the president didn't go out of his way to pardon an obvious villain. That's not what presidential pardons should be for.

You can hem and haw the legal technicalities all you want, but that doesn't change what is morally and factually true.

I'm with you about the refugee situation, although given how sluggish and restrictive our refugee processing is that might not make much of an improvement. We might as well change the poem under the statue to "Your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free can piss off back to where they came from!" It would be more honest.

[Robovski]

Trump IS President, he has the pardon standing by at the flick of his pen and he can do it if he thinks it is to his advantage. That's part of being President, being the king of the hill politically and trying to make that work for your Party. It isn't about running the country well anymore, at least not for you and me. Presidents do things I don't like pretty much every day nowadays*; it's rare when they get it ''right'' in my opinion, but then my opinion doesn't matter. I don't have buckets of cash or the sway of millions. I'm just a guy who works for a living and what is ''right'' doesn't matter so long as long as that is the case. So long as it is ''right'' enough that the system keeps grinding on and the monied interests are happy then he's free to do what he wants to his or his party's advantage. And the same would be true about Hillary had she won. It was true when Obama made healthcare worse for the working poor, it was true when Bush Jr. poured money and lives down rabbit holes in the name of fighting terrorism, it was true when Clinton removed the protections and checks on the banks that caused the boom and the bust in the next decade, Bush Sr. set up the trade deals that caused manufacturing to evaporate from our economy and Reagan broke the unions, closed the sanitariums, and cut the taxes for the rich and it goes on and on and on. Being a ''good'' person doesn't get you squat in politics beyond the local level and that's why our elected representatives are generally vile.

So let's just say I'm used to not liking the president. This is nothing new, except I can relate to my older relative who thought Reagan didn't have a chance. So to bring this back around, the ongoing erosion of one's rights and the public determination of the mob is NOT a virtue. It is de rigueur nowadays for one side to say someone is a ''monster'' and honestly to some degree everyone is right. The mob is as frightening a monster as any I can fathom and the courts at least make an effort to look fair and just still so I'll go with that. He had plenty of motivated enemies who wanted him gone, they got it. What is the point of the contempt charge when he's no longer in a position to act on the court's orders nor guilty of any charges? Who does he stand as an example to in jail? What is he being punished for anymore? So in that state he pardon doesn't bother me. If I let shit like this bother me I might as well have gone ahead and killed myself 4 years ago because there is NOTHING I can do about it and it won't get better until it has gotten so bad that Americans have to do something about it. And much like Socrates, I don't have solutions to go with my criticisms here but I don't have to LIKE any of it. Besides, even if I thought I had an answer, no one will ever listen to me. I'll be lucky if anyone even reads this in it's entirety once because that is how the internet is.


* http://theweek.com/speedreads/576283/ge ... unched-500
* https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/s ... -than-bush
* https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tr ... hs-n733336

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Yes, he HAS the power to do this and he did it.

That doesn't make it RIGHT.

You have a way of explaining that status quo that makes it sound like I'm stupid for pointing out it's moral problems, or naive for objecting to it.

Furthermore, we aren't throwing around the term "monster" here. Did you read the list of things he's done? Look at them and tell me Arpaio isn't a full-on Monster, a corrupt fiend, a committer of atrocities and squasher of basic human rights.

Saying "all politicians are corrupt to a degree so who cares" isn't a helpful attitude or a meaningful one. Yes, morality exists in shades of grey, but there's a big difference between Cigar Smoke Grey and Iron Grey.

What you have not said is a single thing in defense of Arpaio or his pardon, which if you're going to take this position you really should at least try to address.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

If I let shit like this bother me I might as well have gone ahead and killed myself 4 years ago because there is NOTHING I can do about it and it won't get better until it has gotten so bad that Americans have to do something about it.

...now that is an attitude I really have to take issue with.

Things like this bother me whether I "let them" or not, and if your position is going to be one of throwing up your hands in apathy, then why are you even arguing about it in a forum thread? That you bother to argue suggests you have SOME stake in this game, whether you admit it or not.

Personally, I already struggle with suicidal thoughts, a lot. More than once, my longing for death and sense of helplessness in the face of political evil have ganged up on me, and I've thought about taking...a rather dramatic exit. Maybe even pulling a Vedic Yassim. I haven't done that yet.

[The Romulan Republic]

So...anyway, back on topic.

This is red meat for the base, and they'll eat it up. But under the momentary adulation Trump is sure to get from those that already love him, this move is actually going to continue to widen the fissure within the GOP. The GOP establishment does not want the Republican party to officially become the racist party, and they are not happy that Trump is doing everything he can to take them down this path.

House Speaker Paul Ryan on Saturday attacked President Donald Trump for pardoning former Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio, joining several other Republicans to criticize the controversial decision.

I have limited sympathy for Ryan, though. He had to know that putting Trump in charge would forever alter the soul of the Republican party, but his lust for tax cuts was too great, and it blinded him to the danger.

On the one hand, I'm glad Republicans are speaking out against him.

On the other hand... it took you sorry assholes this long? The collusion with Russia to win the election wasn't enough? The boasting about molesting women wasn't enough? The President literally pardoning a man who set up a concentration camp for Latinos and defending Neo-Nazis is what it took?

Also... actions speak louder than words. If you want us to believe you really don't condone what Trump is doing, impeach him.

[Arkle]

You have a way of explaining that status quo that makes it sound like I'm stupid for pointing out it's moral problems, or naive for objecting to it.

He must be a South Park fan.

Saying "all politicians are corrupt to a degree so who cares" isn't a helpful attitude or a meaningful one. Yes, morality exists in shades of grey, but there's a big difference between Cigar Smoke Grey and Iron Grey.

Can you imagine if comic book superheroes thought that way? "Well, even with my powers that my Kryptonian physiology gets from Earth;s yellow sun I can't save everyone, so instead of becoming Superman I'm going to go on Reddit and complain that my rights are being violated becuase Mass Effect Andromeda doesn't have enough fap material."

[Admiral X]

You understand that comic books, video games, and the like are fantasy fulfillment, right? That's meant for entertainment?

[LittleRaven]

On the other hand... it took you sorry assholes this long? The collusion with Russia to win the election wasn't enough? The boasting about molesting women wasn't enough? The President literally pardoning a man who set up a concentration camp for Latinos and defending Neo-Nazis is what it took?

The Russia thing doesn't bother them. Polling shows that Republicans overwhelmingly either don't care about it or believe it didn't happen. Unless Mueller comes back with something iron-clad, it isn't something that they fear will cause them electoral problems. The whole 'grab em' incident was certainly embaressing, but the fact is, it didn't really bother women very much. Yeah, Trump lost among women, but only by 3 points less than Romney. So they can comfortably ignore that too.

But this, combined with Charlottesville, is a much bigger danger. Trump can whip up big rallies by transforming the Republican party into the official vehicle for White Nationalism. He may even be able to make electoral gains in the short term. And he will be sorely tempted to do so, because he has no vision longer than his nose. But Ryan and McConnell, for all of their flaws, see the danger. American demographic change will doom that effort long term, and they risk losing an entire generation of voters.

Also... actions speak louder than words. If you want us to believe you really don't condone what Trump is doing, impeach him.

They can't. He's got an almost 80% approval rating among Republicans. They're hovering somewhere around 20%. He's flat out stronger than they are right now. I actually think they would LOVE to take Trump down, but when you shoot at the king, you'd better not miss.

[Robovski]

You have a way of explaining that status quo that makes it sound like I'm stupid for pointing out it's moral problems, or naive for objecting to it.

He must be a South Park fan.

Saying "all politicians are corrupt to a degree so who cares" isn't a helpful attitude or a meaningful one. Yes, morality exists in shades of grey, but there's a big difference between Cigar Smoke Grey and Iron Grey.

Can you imagine if comic book superheroes thought that way? "Well, even with my powers that my Kryptonian physiology gets from Earth;s yellow sun I can't save everyone, so instead of becoming Superman I'm going to go on Reddit and complain that my rights are being violated becuase Mass Effect Andromeda doesn't have enough fap material."

You have anything productive to add Arkle? Or are you just working up to the stroke you are going to have? Fuzzy can engage with me without projecting crap on me; we don't really need you interjecting a lot of bullcrap. Chuck even posted about treating each other better because of how toxic it became in here, you have a mod telling you to tune it down in this very thread and yet here you are. Yes, I have enjoyed South Park since it debut, I also like Futurama - you want to make something of it? Yes, and a knowing wink because clearly that's an indicator of someone in the know of something, a way of categorizing and insulting me while trying to skirt the letter of forum rules.

So yeah, superheroes... they are works of pure fiction you know? Not really known for being like us mortals except for the ones that are (that really aren't, like Batman). But the implication is that I'm some internet troll who would post such material because I apparently think that way; again adding nothing to the discussion. So well done, two for two on the el zilch-a-meter.

[Robovski]

Yes, he HAS the power to do this and he did it.

That doesn't make it RIGHT.

You have a way of explaining that status quo that makes it sound like I'm stupid for pointing out it's moral problems, or naive for objecting to it.

Furthermore, we aren't throwing around the term "monster" here. Did you read the list of things he's done? Look at them and tell me Arpaio isn't a full-on Monster, a corrupt fiend, a committer of atrocities and squasher of basic human rights.

Saying "all politicians are corrupt to a degree so who cares" isn't a helpful attitude or a meaningful one. Yes, morality exists in shades of grey, but there's a big difference between Cigar Smoke Grey and Iron Grey.

What you have not said is a single thing in defense of Arpaio or his pardon, which if you're going to take this position you really should at least try to address.

I am sorry if you feel I am treating you like someone I find stupid; I am not. You are arguing from a position of principle that differs and so I don't call you naive either. Again, I am sorry if I made you feel that way.

I myself said I didn't have answers, I'm not being helpful. I assert that I have no ability to be helpful. Events will happen regardless of how you or I feel; the greater world does not care one whit for our opinion or our stance on things unless we have some clout, leverage or power and I know I am far removed from the wheelhouse of Tucson, let alone the nation. My defense was that Joe was doing his job, enforcing the law of the land as voted by its citizenry and while it was just for him to be held in contempt when he disobeyed a court order it was not just to keep him under that contempt charge after he was removed from office and the charges were dropped, which I have already stated. That is a matter of justice, not a matter of whether Joe deserves good things or bad things because he is a good or bad person. So even if Trump has pardoned him for his own reasons (which I am certain he has, it is a lever of influence he is free to wield) it is good that Joe be free from what has become an unjust punishment. And that tiny bit of win is what I can salvage from that.