DS9 - Tribunal

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I've been watching SFDebris for years, since the youtube days, and have never felt the need to comment. Today I really do. Thank you, Chuck, for saying what you said in this review. Nuance, subtlety, complexity. All the things missing from the loud and abrasive in the current climate. Thanks again, I look forward to Serenity in a few days time.

[Darth Wedgius]

Antifa isn't a group, it's a tactic. Also, you may want to refresh your memory on what fascism is.


Edit: I didn't mean to be so dismissive, it's just that there's a lot of misinformation being spread about antifa and the left in general and I just wanted to clear things up if I could.

Openly fascist groups, such as the Proud Boys and the English Defense League are intentionally sparking violence with counter-protests to manipulate the way that people see their opponents. Because such a premium is placed on civility, they are trying to provoke antifa reactions so they can claim they didn't throw the first punch.

Antifa action is limited to the direct opposition of fascist organizing. This can include violent action, and if you have a problem with that, your concerns are legitimate, but what we are talking about is not a coup against the current government, or a plan to eliminate anyone who shares different views. What we are talking about, is being willing to punch Nazis. And again, there is a debate to be had about the validity or effectiveness of such a tactic, but that is what it is; nothing else.

And if you're hearing that antifa organizing is happening for any reason other than the direct opposition of currently active and open fascist groups, you are being lied to.

Antifa has websites and social media presences. Tactics don't have websites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen Antifa tactics including property damage. According to Wikipedia, there are about 400 Nazis in the U.S. And I'm pretty sure most of the people I've seen Antifa oppose have not been advocating for anything authoritarian.

Antifa has also suppressed the freedom of speech for people, haven't they? People who were not advocating anything authoritarian, AFAIK.

I have also not heard the Proud Boys advocating for authoritarianism. Or white supremacy, or racism of any sort.

What definition of "fascist" are you using?

People can label themselves or their actions as "antifa", or have that label applied to them by others, but there's no one with a trademark on the term, no organization deciding who is or is not a member. There are groups that are antifa, but there is no Antifa group; the same way that there are liberal groups and conservative groups, but there's not a Liberal Group and Conservative Group

That's also something to keep in mind when you ask how many Nazis there are in America. If you look just at the American Nazi Party, then yeah, that's a pretty small number. But they're hardly the only Nazi organization in America; even if you only look at groups that openly identify themselves as Nazis, they're far from the largest. And there are plenty of other groups and individuals who, while they reject the Nazi label, still argue for many of the same beliefs.

As for the Proud Boys . . . well, its founder/leader has openly identified himself as a "western chauvinist".

Pardon me, but if violence, intimidation, and property damage are being done under the name Antifa, then isn't the "don't believe what's in a name" point still valid?

As far as nazis go, I did not just mean the American Nazi Party. I meant all neo-Nazi groups. As far as those who argue for many of the same beliefs, that doesn't make them nazis. Socialists argue for many of the same beliefs as marxists, do they not?

As for the Proud Boys, yes, it's leader has openly identified himself as a "western chauvanist." But that's not white supremacy or racism. Unless you're one of those people who believe that race is culture?

[Darth Wedgius]

The only thing I would add is that there have been plenty of times when someone is deplatformed due to protests being held against them speaking at a certain venue... but, this isn't the same thing as free speech being suppressed. It's actually just one group using their freedom of speech to convince the platform holder not to have these people speak on their platform. Essentially "HEY! don't give your microphone to that racist! They're probably going to use it to say some racist shit!"

I'll agree that using one's free speech in a non-threatening manner to convince people to remove one venue for speaking doesn't cross a line for me. Quite.

What about when threats of violence are used to deplatform? Is that free speech?

[Darth Wedgius]

That's also something to keep in mind when you ask how many Nazis there are in America. If you look just at the American Nazi Party, then yeah, that's a pretty small number. But they're hardly the only Nazi organization in America; even if you only look at groups that openly identify themselves as Nazis, they're far from the largest. And there are plenty of other groups and individuals who, while they reject the Nazi label, still argue for many of the same beliefs.

Every person who was at the Charlottesville protest with a Nazi flag was a Nazi whether they hold membership in the party or not. Chanting "blood and soil" or anything else that is effectively a Nazi slogan would also count. I'd go so far as to say anyone who willingly participates in a protest that includes any Nazi flags or slogans is at best a Nazi sympathizer.

Then you'd be wrong. People with very different beliefs can fight for a common cause, can they not? Just look at World War 2. Stalinists and capitalists vs. "Aryan" supremacists and Japan.

Or look at the left nowadays. "Pigs in a blanket. Fry 'em like bacon!" Are BLM murder-sympathizers?

[bronnt]

Just like with Picard in "Chain of Command" - when the Cardassians capture a Starfleet officer, war is not typically the result. The result is high-stakes poker match.

This is a very strong second on the list of top Keiko episodes, right after "In the Hands of the Prophets".

Except Piccard was illegally in Cardassian terority meanwhile O'Brien was minding his own business in Federation space.

And even in that case, Starfleet eventually came up with "Release Picard intact or I'm going to blow up every single ship here with one button press." It wasn't immediate, but even with Admiral Bitchayev telling them to avoid war at all costs, they took some action.

[Fianna]

Pardon me, but if violence, intimidation, and property damage are being done under the name Antifa, then isn't the "don't believe what's in a name" point still valid?

As far as nazis go, I did not just mean the American Nazi Party. I meant all neo-Nazi groups. As far as those who argue for many of the same beliefs, that doesn't make them nazis. Socialists argue for many of the same beliefs as marxists, do they not?

As for the Proud Boys, yes, it's leader has openly identified himself as a "western chauvanist." But that's not white supremacy or racism. Unless you're one of those people who believe that race is culture?

1) My point was that anyone can label themselves as antifa (or be labeled antifa by others), so you're gonna get some people using the label who believe in violence or destruction of property, and others using the label who don't believe in those things, and neither can control how the others behave or stop them from using the label, because there is no organization or regulatory body.

2) You said that, going by Wikipedia, there were only 400 Nazis in the United States. According to Wikipedia, the American Nazi Party has 500 members, and they're one of the smaller Neo-Nazi organizations. And, of course, as with any ideology, many of those who believe in it aren't necessarily going to be card-carrying members of a like-minded organization.

3) To bring things back around to Chuck's video, that guy calling himself a "western chauvinist" is an example of "The Name Game". Calling himself a "white nationalist" would be a bad PR move, since people have a lot of negative opinions about white nationalists. So he changes "nationalist" to "chauvinist" (which is defined as "an extreme and belligerent form of nationalism"), and changes "white" to "western" (two terms that have a strong association in this context, but are distinct enough to allow for deniability). Now, it's possible to be a chauvinist for western culture without being a white nationalist. But given that the Proud Boys founder's defense, when accused of being a white nationalist, was to claim that there's no such thing as white nationalists? Doesn't seem like he's arguing in good faith.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Bringing up the Green New Deal was a good example, I had thought the same thing with those biting false dichotomy headlines.

[excalibur]

Could of been worse. SFdebris could of done Far Beyond the Stars like Lore Reloaded and not be very subtle about it...like as subtle as a brick thrown through a small business and the owners beaten to death by 2x4s because of their skin color were paler than their attackers


I am against the patriot act and I do not like the wording of the green new deal. Socialism in a vacuum does seem like a good idea. We have programs like that already in America. Welfare, social security, etc but the problem is socialist programs have consistently throughout history been the subject of corruption. People who aren't unable to get a job literally abuse the system to get on welfare, food stamps, etc. Why? Because they can. Oh the socialists say tax the rich. Well since they aren't very good at math, even if you steal, and I do mean steal, that's what taxes are. Steal all the money from every billionaire and millionaire in the country...and still not have enough money to support the country.

My stance is to look at the argument both sides advocate and see if it actually works or not. But there are some things that is absolute. Our individual rights, which people are willing to let a little bit of it be violated for what they think is safety and if I am even a little bit against it, suddenly I am completely opposing their views. They'd call me a right wing conservative, etc.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Much in the same way that its better to let a dozen murderers go free than to convict one innocent person for a crime they didn't commit, it's better to let a dozen people get food stamps they might not be legally entitled to than to let one family starve.

[clearspira]

Much in the same way that its better to let a dozen murderers go free than to convict one innocent person for a crime they didn't commit, it's better to let a dozen people get food stamps they might not be legally entitled to than to let one family starve.

Especially when we know for a fact that the government/corporations can cover the cost of that stolen food effortlessly. That's why some suggest that if you are going to shoplift, do so from a massive chain store instead of your local mom & pop.