Unpopular opinions/going against the grain of the conventional wisdom, let's talk about it

[McAvoy]

I actually like Picard and Discovery.

Don't get me wrong in both shows, there are certain things I think is either a bad misstep or bad. The ending of Picard is just dumb and technically a no no in story writing.

Picard felt like a season long movie and probably could have if they got away from the Borg cube part of it.

Discovery has its ups and downs.

Same here, however I do personally love the ending of Star Trek Picard myself, Picard inspiring the androids that people will indeed fight for their right to exist by him standing against the Romulan armada even when he's about to die was indeed inspiring, Captain Riker coming in with his own fleet to help Picard is great, Picard’s death and rebirth was heart warming, bringing the “should artificial life be treated the same as organic life?” question throughout the season to a conclusion with “yes it should.” and will no doubt continue to raise questions in Season 2, and of course Picard finally being able to say goodbye to Data and allowing him to die had me misty eyed all the way through.

I am going to just point out I meant Picard becoming an android and not Data's final death.

Data's final death actually hurt me when I saw it. We all have lived with Data being dead since Nemesis though through comics or books, Data was brought back through B4 getting Data's memories. Obviously with Picard they shut all that down with B4 being physically inferior to Data in terms of his positronic brain.

But that death scene was great.

I do wonder how they managed to make Brent Spinner look 'younger' in it. He does look odd in it, hairline weird, face looks just a bit off. The final episode his jawline looked off, like there was absolutely no 'sag' in from the chin to throat area.

Discovery has its own issues. While to me the SJW stuff people are mad about, it's not that obvious. Yeah they make a big deal out of the gay couple. An episode where they killed off some man who was mansplaining he could do better than Michael in something she was expertly better at was just over the top. Yeah there are more women of power or status than men. That doesn't bother me.

Spore drive bothers me. Spock having an adopted human sister does. Section 31 being known and out in the open with Starfleet OK with their operations bothers me. Everything about the Klingons bother me.

[Link8909]

I actually like Picard and Discovery.

Don't get me wrong in both shows, there are certain things I think is either a bad misstep or bad. The ending of Picard is just dumb and technically a no no in story writing.

Picard felt like a season long movie and probably could have if they got away from the Borg cube part of it.

Discovery has its ups and downs.

Same here, however I do personally love the ending of Star Trek Picard myself, Picard inspiring the androids that people will indeed fight for their right to exist by him standing against the Romulan armada even when he's about to die was indeed inspiring, Captain Riker coming in with his own fleet to help Picard is great, Picard’s death and rebirth was heart warming, bringing the “should artificial life be treated the same as organic life?” question throughout the season to a conclusion with “yes it should.” and will no doubt continue to raise questions in Season 2, and of course Picard finally being able to say goodbye to Data and allowing him to die had me misty eyed all the way through.

I am going to just point out I meant Picard becoming an android and not Data's final death.

Data's final death actually hurt me when I saw it. We all have lived with Data being dead since Nemesis though through comics or books, Data was brought back through B4 getting Data's memories. Obviously with Picard they shut all that down with B4 being physically inferior to Data in terms of his positronic brain.

But that death scene was great.

I do wonder how they managed to make Brent Spinner look 'younger' in it. He does look odd in it, hairline weird, face looks just a bit off. The final episode his jawline looked off, like there was absolutely no 'sag' in from the chin to throat area.

Discovery has its own issues. While to me the SJW stuff people are mad about, it's not that obvious. Yeah they make a big deal out of the gay couple. An episode where they killed off some man who was mansplaining he could do better than Michael in something she was expertly better at was just over the top. Yeah there are more women of power or status than men. That doesn't bother me.

Spore drive bothers me. Spock having an adopted human sister does. Section 31 being known and out in the open with Starfleet OK with their operations bothers me. Everything about the Klingons bother me.

I imagen once the Blu-Ray of Star Trek Picard comes out they'll have a featurette on Data's makeup, my best guess would be a lot of makeup and some de-aging technology, personally it looks very good.

Something else I appreciate about Data's death is the fact that the creators stuck to it and weren't going to undo his sacrifice in Star Trek Nemesis even if he had the easiest way to come back, as much as I'd personally like to have seen Captain Data of the Enterprise, I have much more appreciation for keeping his death permanent, it gives his sacrifice more meaning and death having more consequences, which is why I do see how Picard's death and rebirth would not be a popular thing amongst fans, I personally like it myself and like I said it will be interesting to see how Picard adjusts to it all.

I do see as well how the things Star Trek Discovery did that you brought up would also not be popular changes amongst fans, for me personally they don't bother me that much, the Klingon changes were unnecessary though; while I wouldn't have gone that route myself, I personally liked Spock having an adopted human sister, it gave us more information on Spock's childhood, more on Sarek and his fascination on humanity and his belief in IDIC, and I liked the dynamic between Spock and Michael; and while the science for the Spore Drive is obviously ludicrous, much like a lot of Star Trek technology I do like and appreciate that we do get to see multiple episodes of the applications and repercussions of such a drive, and isn't a one and done episode of the week technology that is forgotten by everyone next time like so many bits of technology throughout the franchise; and honestly, I personally I can think of Star Trek episodes are much, much worst than all of Discovery and Picard so far.

Also the stuff that people bring up about the... representation in Discovery and Picard, to be blunt, is just dumb, Star Trek has always been about representation and progressive thinking, why would anyone get mad that Discovery and Picard have those elements, it's like getting mad that Breaking Bad involves drugs.

[Captain Crimson]

I actually like Picard and Discovery.

Don't get me wrong in both shows, there are certain things I think is either a bad misstep or bad. The ending of Picard is just dumb and technically a no no in story writing.

Picard felt like a season long movie and probably could have if they got away from the Borg cube part of it.

Discovery has its ups and downs.

Same here, however I do personally love the ending of Star Trek Picard myself, Picard inspiring the androids that people will indeed fight for their right to exist by him standing against the Romulan armada even when he's about to die was indeed inspiring, Captain Riker coming in with his own fleet to help Picard is great, Picard’s death and rebirth was heart warming, bringing the “should artificial life be treated the same as organic life?” question throughout the season to a conclusion with “yes it should.” and will no doubt continue to raise questions in Season 2, and of course Picard finally being able to say goodbye to Data and allowing him to die had me misty eyed all the way through.

I am going to just point out I meant Picard becoming an android and not Data's final death.

Data's final death actually hurt me when I saw it. We all have lived with Data being dead since Nemesis though through comics or books, Data was brought back through B4 getting Data's memories. Obviously with Picard they shut all that down with B4 being physically inferior to Data in terms of his positronic brain.

But that death scene was great.

I do wonder how they managed to make Brent Spinner look 'younger' in it. He does look odd in it, hairline weird, face looks just a bit off. The final episode his jawline looked off, like there was absolutely no 'sag' in from the chin to throat area.

Discovery has its own issues. While to me the SJW stuff people are mad about, it's not that obvious. Yeah they make a big deal out of the gay couple. An episode where they killed off some man who was mansplaining he could do better than Michael in something she was expertly better at was just over the top. Yeah there are more women of power or status than men. That doesn't bother me.

Spore drive bothers me. Spock having an adopted human sister does. Section 31 being known and out in the open with Starfleet OK with their operations bothers me. Everything about the Klingons bother me.

I imagen once the Blu-Ray of Star Trek Picard comes out they'll have a featurette on Data's makeup, my best guess would be a lot of makeup and some de-aging technology, personally it looks very good.

Something else I appreciate about Data's death is the fact that the creators stuck to it and weren't going to undo his sacrifice in Star Trek Nemesis even if he had the easiest way to come back, as much as I'd personally like to have seen Captain Data of the Enterprise, I have much more appreciation for keeping his death permanent, it gives his sacrifice more meaning and death having more consequences, which is why I do see how Picard's death and rebirth would not be a popular thing amongst fans, I personally like it myself and like I said it will be interesting to see how Picard adjusts to it all.

I do see as well how the things Star Trek Discovery did that you brought up would also not be popular changes amongst fans, for me personally they don't bother me that much, the Klingon changes were unnecessary though; while I wouldn't have gone that route myself, I personally liked Spock having an adopted human sister, it gave us more information on Spock's childhood, more on Sarek and his fascination on humanity and his belief in IDIC, and I liked the dynamic between Spock and Michael; and while the science for the Spore Drive is obviously ludicrous, much like a lot of Star Trek technology I do like and appreciate that we do get to see multiple episodes of the applications and repercussions of such a drive, and isn't a one and done episode of the week technology that is forgotten by everyone next time like so many bits of technology throughout the franchise; and honestly, I personally I can think of Star Trek episodes are much, much worst than all of Discovery and Picard so far.

Also the stuff that people bring up about the... representation in Discovery and Picard, to be blunt, is just dumb, Star Trek has always been about representation and progressive thinking, why would anyone get mad that Discovery and Picard have those elements, it's like getting mad that Breaking Bad involves drugs.

That's the thing here - these people parroting it fail to see it's only a minor step forward, at best, since we already had both a woman captain written in a sexist way, and a black captain who was a well-defined and fully fleshed out character. And I find it so amusing when leftists in Hollywood or shills for the Hollywood leftists jump aboard the train. Because nothing is more cringe-worthy to me than the leftist view of "corporate bad," who work in a highly corporate environment. They can never live up to the values they preach. You'd lose money. It's also disingenuous because they are failing to learn from the past, which had perfect diversity except on LGBT representation. So ironic.

[GreyICE]

That's the thing here - these people parroting it fail to see it's only a minor step forward, at best, since we already had both a woman captain written in a sexist way, and a black captain who was a well-defined and fully fleshed out character. And I find it so amusing when leftists in Hollywood or shills for the Hollywood leftists jump aboard the train. Because nothing is more cringe-worthy to me than the leftist view of "corporate bad," who work in a highly corporate environment. They can never live up to the values they preach. You'd lose money. It's also disingenuous because they are failing to learn from the past, which had perfect diversity except on LGBT representation. So ironic.

Uh, about that. TNG had 2 women, and 5 men. I won't comment about one being a doctor and the other being stranded in a bunny suit.

This channel has already made fun of the DS9 episode where Avery brooks gives the speech about how black men wouldn't have been given major roles in a spy movie in the holodeck episode - and then puts both women in the classic sexist roles of "flirt/tease/distraction." Another show that was 6 men, 2 women.

Voyager, as you already noted, had some gender issues. But it was also a 6/3 show. (2:1, so getting better). 7 of 9 also got the bunny suit 2.0, because of course. Enterprise we were back to 5:2, strip teases, and whatever the fuck T'Pol was wearing. You really can tell that it was meant to be TNG 2.0, can't you? Same size crew, same gender ratios, ornery captain prone to speeches. Replace transporters with a strip tease in the decontamination chamber, add a quirky and lovable doctor because it worked great on Voyager, hell, it must have pitched like a home run.

Executives have long believed that as soon as the gender ratio of a show gets close to 50:50 that it becomes a "woman's show", and that especially for science fiction that can't be allowed. Star Trek was certainly no exemplar there.

[Captain Crimson]

That's the thing here - these people parroting it fail to see it's only a minor step forward, at best, since we already had both a woman captain written in a sexist way, and a black captain who was a well-defined and fully fleshed out character. And I find it so amusing when leftists in Hollywood or shills for the Hollywood leftists jump aboard the train. Because nothing is more cringe-worthy to me than the leftist view of "corporate bad," who work in a highly corporate environment. They can never live up to the values they preach. You'd lose money. It's also disingenuous because they are failing to learn from the past, which had perfect diversity except on LGBT representation. So ironic.

Uh, about that. TNG had 2 women, and 5 men. I won't comment about one being a doctor and the other being stranded in a bunny suit.

This channel has already made fun of the DS9 episode where Avery brooks gives the speech about how black men wouldn't have been given major roles in a spy movie in the holodeck episode - and then puts both women in the classic sexist roles of "flirt/tease/distraction." Another show that was 6 men, 2 women.

Voyager, as you already noted, had some gender issues. But it was also a 6/3 show. (2:1, so getting better). 7 of 9 also got the bunny suit 2.0, because of course. Enterprise we were back to 5:2, strip teases, and whatever the fuck T'Pol was wearing. You really can tell that it was meant to be TNG 2.0, can't you? Same size crew, same gender ratios, ornery captain prone to speeches. Replace transporters with a strip tease in the decontamination chamber, add a quirky and lovable doctor because it worked great on Voyager, hell, it must have pitched like a home run.

Executives have long believed that as soon as the gender ratio of a show gets close to 50:50 that it becomes a "woman's show", and that especially for science fiction that can't be allowed. Star Trek was certainly no exemplar there.

I stopped taking you seriously the second you tried to argue against '90s diversity. As I'd said, the only area that was lacking was LGBT representation. And at least the '90s had more original stories than they do today.

You also miss my larger point. The two-second lesbian kiss of TROS is hardly a victory when they knew it was going to be cut in overseas markets, and it was such a minor step, it may be better to have not included it. All it did was enrage LGBT empowerment groups. Kind of an issue with TROS in that it did unite fandom - against LF.

"Meant to be," only talking down to the viewers unlike TNG had done.

[GreyICE]

I stopped taking you seriously the second you tried to argue against '90s diversity.

Well that's about what I expected. You really are a complete idiot. I've been trying not to write you off, but there's just no indication you're willing to try to be any better than that. The idea that "90s had erased all sexism from television" is so fucking dumb it hurts. Take off your blinders, or be content to be thought a clown, but you keeping going the way you are? It's not working for you.

And if you think I'm trying to hold modern television programming up as some sort of paragon... no. Some shows genuinely try, some just tick boxes in random ways, some things have actually regressed.

[Captain Crimson]

I stopped taking you seriously the second you tried to argue against '90s diversity.

Well that's about what I expected. You really are a complete idiot. I've been trying not to write you off, but there's just no indication you're willing to try to be any better than that. The idea that "90s had erased all sexism from television" is so fucking dumb it hurts. Take off your blinders, or be content to be thought a clown, but you keeping going the way you are? It's not working for you.

And if you think I'm trying to hold modern television programming up as some sort of paragon... no. Some shows genuinely try, some just tick boxes in random ways, some things have actually regressed.

Can't sleep, so thought I'd leave a reply.

They hadn't. But this "MOAR DIVERSITY" agenda being pushed is really facepalming. Why is that? It's a result of the pendulum swinging to the right, the left, and then back right. The diversity was just fine in TNG and DS9, since even if it wasn't the case with the real world, that we could pretend prejudice was gone in the 1990s had the same effect on entertainment to a degree. The era when you're talking about turning to the domestic after you won the war, or so you'd believe, and coupled with computer innovation and an economic explosion, will lead to a more complacent, comfortable mindset. I think people are too afraid to get that way now, seeing enemies around every corner, and Mr. Chuck is right, you can probably trace it all back to 9/11.

B5. You think the diversity was lacking there? Why do you need to fill in checkboxes? I have nothing against Rey, as a character, or a female lead in SW. My issue is that I never have any real sense she is in danger, that she's just Jaina Solo grafted onto a new Luke Skywalker that it's painfully obvious after they told us they wanted to keep TFA a surprise and felt "confined" by the EU, and, most importantly, they didn't think the story through, since there could be a potent message there about her temptation to give in to the dark side, her bloodline, and how we don't have to be our relatives, we can be better than our roots, family is more than blood - like the Mandalorians of yore. Nope. Because she is made to fill out the female protagonist and strong feminist archetype checkbox. And if you push that too hard, it becomes as bad as tokenism and excludes moderates, which is where all the push-back originates from.

The only area B5 was lacking in was generally with LGBT themes. Russian Winter, as a ship, was so subtle the first few times through, I never even saw it. It could have done with a bit more emphasis. Ms. Christian says it was classy for Mr. JMS not to exploit the ship for chip thrills, which TBH, I could appreciate, in theory, but at the same time, this is far from downplaying the sexy tones, this is flying over most people's heads, no doubt due to studio concerns. And you know, you just can't win on this. While the OT definitely had whitewashing, when it came to the PT, poor Mr. Lucas got called racist. He married a black woman. It's just so horrible.

I think Mr. Chuck hit the nail on the head with his review on Fair Haven. Fiction is not an escape so much as a way for people to live out fantasies they otherwise never could in the real world. And in this case, I want a truly color-blind world, where gender only matters to some degree, and not to the excesses of today. I want the way people choose to love and mate to be so commonplace as to get a shrug if you say you want to be with the same sex, the opposite sex, both, or more. I want some of our hang-ups today to dissolve. And I know we can do this. I want The Culture. And such a future is coming, someday. If we can get to it. But until that time all we have is our favorite stories. And when someone is being too ham-fisted, too heavy-handed, you're not going to like that. Especially in an era where CGI is a fallback to push through lazy scripts. As I said, it's amusing watching leftists preaching this stuff when corporate reality limits them. They CAN never live up to those values, like the need to market internationally. That's going to cut into what social themes you put, which is why you need to think about the STORY. Period.

I want that back. The passion for art. We don't have artists. We have businessmen and affirmative action managers and grifters and accountants. We don't have artists. Part of that's no doubt reflected from the escalating tribalism taking over the country. And I refuse to be part of that. I just want the love in stories back, but that costs money. And there's only so much of that to spread around.

Okay, heading to pass out.

[clearspira]

I fail to see why a show needs perfect 50.50 gender, race and sexuality division, mainly because real life isn't that and it should be obvious that it isn't. The human race would not be 8 billion strong if gays numbered anywhere near that.

Other than that though, I find myself agreeing with GreyIce. Even accepting half a century of cultural advancement, which imo only TOS and early TNG can really use as an excuse, Trek's claim to be diverse is a joke.

And even at the time I remember people remarking how ridiculous 7 of 9 and T'Pols catsuits are in universe. Why would 7, a woman obsessed with perfection and effciency wear such a thing? Its not just the boulder boobs that must eternally get in the way either, the thing that always got me were the high heels when the woman almost never sits down! Her feet must be a battlefield of blisters. And less said about a race of logical beings who only have sex every 7 years wearing catsuits the better.

Troi's costume "maybe" makes sense as she comes from a matriarchal world so maybe the male gaze is a not concept that she is familiar with, but come on, I just put more thought into that than Gene ever did.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

I'm going to have to nitpick you on this, Vulcans don't only have sex every 7 years.

Yes the Pon Farr happens every 7 years to the males, but they can mate whenever they chose just like humans.

The writer of the Pon Farr episode even kept on correcting fans about this, with both "Word of God" and in-universe proof.

[Link8909]

That's the thing here - these people parroting it fail to see it's only a minor step forward, at best, since we already had both a woman captain written in a sexist way, and a black captain who was a well-defined and fully fleshed out character. And I find it so amusing when leftists in Hollywood or shills for the Hollywood leftists jump aboard the train. Because nothing is more cringe-worthy to me than the leftist view of "corporate bad," who work in a highly corporate environment. They can never live up to the values they preach. You'd lose money. It's also disingenuous because they are failing to learn from the past, which had perfect diversity except on LGBT representation. So ironic.

Uh, about that. TNG had 2 women, and 5 men. I won't comment about one being a doctor and the other being stranded in a bunny suit.

This channel has already made fun of the DS9 episode where Avery brooks gives the speech about how black men wouldn't have been given major roles in a spy movie in the holodeck episode - and then puts both women in the classic sexist roles of "flirt/tease/distraction." Another show that was 6 men, 2 women.

Voyager, as you already noted, had some gender issues. But it was also a 6/3 show. (2:1, so getting better). 7 of 9 also got the bunny suit 2.0, because of course. Enterprise we were back to 5:2, strip teases, and whatever the fuck T'Pol was wearing. You really can tell that it was meant to be TNG 2.0, can't you? Same size crew, same gender ratios, ornery captain prone to speeches. Replace transporters with a strip tease in the decontamination chamber, add a quirky and lovable doctor because it worked great on Voyager, hell, it must have pitched like a home run.

Executives have long believed that as soon as the gender ratio of a show gets close to 50:50 that it becomes a "woman's show", and that especially for science fiction that can't be allowed. Star Trek was certainly no exemplar there.

I stopped taking you seriously the second you tried to argue against '90s diversity. As I'd said, the only area that was lacking was LGBT representation. And at least the '90s had more original stories than they do today.

You also miss my larger point. The two-second lesbian kiss of TROS is hardly a victory when they knew it was going to be cut in overseas markets, and it was such a minor step, it may be better to have not included it. All it did was enrage LGBT empowerment groups. Kind of an issue with TROS in that it did unite fandom - against LF.

"Meant to be," only talking down to the viewers unlike TNG had done.

And I thought that me saying I like Spock having an adopted human sister would be the most controverted think I’d say here.

I get what your saying, like I said, representation and progressive thinking have been apart of Star Trek since the beginning and I stand by that, but due to the mentality of the times like the casual misogyny of the sixties that we see in The Original Series, or because of Rick Berman who was never comfortable with same sex relationships and was misogynistic himself (I’d check out Renegade Cut’s video on Rick Berman for the full history), and Gene Roddenberry being... Gene Roddenberry, Star Trek also paradoxically was not very progressive.

And I’d like to add that it wasn’t because of the mentality of the nineties that Jeri Ryan was stuck in a cat-suit or that there were no same sex relationships to be seen, I watched Friends when it was coming out, Ross’s first wife turned out to be a lesbian, Chandler’s dad was gay and a cross-dresser, and there were many episode dealing with same sex like “The One with Rachel’s Big Kiss”, Friends aired in the nineties alone side the TNG era shows and while a comedy, actually was more progressive than Star Trek at the time, and it was because of Rick Berman holding back the creative teams of the shows at the time, the only reason we were able to get good episodes during this time is in spite of him, and because people like Ira Steven Behr who deliberately went behind his back and did what they wanted, even the Star Trek books were able to be more progressive than the shows, New Frontier’s Burgoyne 172 is a dual-gendered alien who was in a relationship with Mark McHenry (a human male) and then with Selar (a Vulcan woman).

But like I said, while there were defiantly some episodes that do a disservice to the franchise (“Code of Honor”, “Up the Long Ladder “, “Sub Rosa”, “Profit and Lace” and “Unexpected” to name a few), we have dozens of characters that are a positive representation of different cultures and genders (having the characters Uhura, Sulu and Chekhov on The Original Series during the sixties was a big deal after all), and hundreds of episodes spanning over fifty years of the franchise that truly represent the progressive thinking that we should strive for (“Beyond the Farthest Star” is the best representation of this), and I’m glade that the new show are still keeping to that progressive mindset, we now finally have multiple characters who are either in a same sex relationship or are attracted to the same sex as themselves, and I’d like to make the argument that Picard at his age in Star Trek Picard is a great representation of the elderly.

It seems ever since some terrible person (don’t know his name and don’t care to find out) complained about representation in Mad Max Fury Road, places on the internet like YouTube and Twitter have devolved into a toxic mindset, its honestly a shame really because Star Trek has always tried to teach use to be better, and yet I see click-bait YouTube channels making horrific arguments and statements against representation and progressive thinking, all in the name of Star Trek.

And it’s the same with Star Wars, for a franchise that’s major theme throughout all the films is not to give into fear and hatred I sure do see a lot of people giving into fear and hatred over these films, and quite frankly it is completely unjustified, not everyone hates the new Star Wars films, I like both The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker and there are many other people out there that do to, same with the new Star Trek shows, it’s only because of the shear loudness of people complaining, the YouTube click-bait channels spreading fear and ignorance, Twitter being Twitter, and the fact complaining about these things is now the popular thing to do (like pointing out Aqua-Man is useless) that we end up with these eco-chambers of negativity, and in the end it doesn’t do any good for the image of any of the fandoms, I honestly see all of this unnecessary toxic behavior and it makes me sad, that some days I say to myself “If this is the standard Star Wars or Star Trek fan, I don’t want to be a fan anymore.”

Fortunately I know better and these people do not represent the whole of both fandoms, there are good and reasonable people both online and otherwise out there that genuinely try to live up to the moral standards of both Star Trek and Star Wars, that while it is important to be critical and point out flaws, not to go overboard and dismiss any of the good that comes with it, and like SFDebris said in his “Tribunal” review you don’t have to go all in into one side of an argument.

Sorry that I went on for so long, but I’d like to end out with a quote from Sylvester Stallone in his iconic role as Sergeant John Spartan in the 1993 film Demolition Man that I think we should all take to heart:

“Whoa, whoa, whoa! I'm gonna tell you what you're gonna do. Why don't you get a little dirty... you, a lot clean. And somewhere in the middle... I don't know, you'll figure it out.”