Noting the date

[LittleRaven]

Or are they just trying to say “yeah, well slavery was awesome, and should be glorified”?

Difficulty: Didn't glorify slavery.

[GreyICE]

Difficulty: Didn't glorify slavery.

Neither did Lenin statues. The thing is, all of these historic statues are built because someone is saying "We're awesome". That's the point of them. They're boasting. So of course they get toppled when people go "you're not awesome, you're dicks."

There's a few memorials that actually rise to the level of being art, but most of this mass-produced trash is as artistic as a Nickelback band shirt.

Incredibly tired of the "what about muh statues" crowd who doesn't care about actual real living breathing human beings.

[LittleRaven]

Neither did Lenin statues.

Uh....they kinda did. The Soviet Union wasn't exactly opposed to slavery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_in_the_Soviet_Union

The thing is, all of these historic statues are built because someone is saying "We're awesome". That's the point of them. They're boasting. So of course they get toppled when people go "you're not awesome, you're dicks."

Now THIS is on point. The Forward statue was not raised to glorify slavery, but it WAS Madison basically patting itself on the back for being progressive. And the people who tore it down did so because they don't think Madison deserves those kudos.

Which is fine...it's just a statue. But if THAT'S the standard we're going to use, it's going to be hard to justify ANY statues. MLK was a great civil rights leader who accomplished wonderful things for his community...but he wasn't really that great a human being, certainly not by modern standards. Should we tear down his statues?

[GreyICE]

The thing is, all of these historic statues are built because someone is saying "We're awesome". That's the point of them. They're boasting. So of course they get toppled when people go "you're not awesome, you're dicks."

Now THIS is on point. The Forward statue was not raised to glorify slavery, but it WAS Madison basically patting itself on the back for being progressive. And the people who tore it down did so because they don't think Madison deserves those kudos.

Which is fine...it's just a statue. But if THAT'S the standard we're going to use, it's going to be hard to justify ANY statues. MLK was a great civil rights leader who accomplished wonderful things for his community...but he wasn't really that great a human being, certainly not by modern standards. Should we tear down his statues?

I don't know. Maybe at some point people will tear down MLK's statues. Maybe they'll have found out ways to communicate with animals, and looking back will see eating meat as little different from deciding that cannibalism is okay if you're just eating people who are "really dumb". Then all of us who eat meat will be in the "oh gross, those monsters from the past" category. And then they topple the statue of a vegan or something.

That'll be then, and that'll be their society, not mine. It won't change anything about who MLK was or what he accomplished. History is not filled with saints and demons, it's filled with people, no one's historical record is completely one color (okay, maybe Heinrich Himmler, that guy never had the slightest thing resembling a redeeming characteristic that I ever heard of).

The point is, it's a political statement. I don't think the way it's being made is particularly productive, the way I think that flag burning is not particularly productive, but do I get as worked up about it as I do about extrajudicial murder? No.

[GreyICE]

Like, just as an example, these sorts of conversations are happening all over the country: https://portcitydaily.com/local-news/2020/06/24/fired-wilmington-cop-we-are-just-going-to-go-out-and-start-slaughtering-them-f-ni-i-cant-wait-god-i-cant-wait-free-read/?fbclid=IwAR2rQ5D5Fyq6qgTRpdU6clh8a_7iOY_AUDe76SvfMAxywUnUPZVnoGzVVgM

According to the summary, “Moore began telling Piner about an arrest he had made at work the day before. During that conversation, Moore refers to the female as a ‘negro’ and a ‘ni—-‘ on multiple occasions.”

He also referred to a magistrate judge, who is also black, as a ‘fucking negro magistrate.’

“At one point, Moore states, “She needed a bullet in her head right then and move on. Let’s move the body out of the way and keep going.” Piner responds, ‘That’s what I have been trying to tell you,'” according to the documents.

After more derogatory comments about the arrestee and the magistrate, the conversation takes an even bleaker turn, as the two officers discuss an upcoming ‘civil war.’

“Piner tells Moore later in the conversation that he feels a civil war is coming and he is ‘ready.’ Piner advised he is going to buy a new assault rifle in the next couple of weeks. A short time later Officer Piner began to discuss society being close to ‘martial law’ and soon ‘we are just gonna go out and start slaughtering them fucking ni—–. I can’t wait. God, I can’t wait.’ Moore responded that he would not do that. Piner stated, ‘I am ready,'” according to the summary.

“Officer Piner then explained to Cpl. Moore that he felt society needed a civil war to “wipe ’em off the fucking map. That’ll put ’em back about four or five generations.'”

Those three fuckwits happened to get caught on camera, yes. They accidentally turned it on, because in addition to being racists, they're dumb. Okay. How often are those conversations being had without cameras? How many cops are planning for a race war? How many cops are white supremacists like Bob Kroll?

That's what scares me. Statues? We can replace a few fucking statues if it comes down to it. As I said, it's about as productive as burning a flag, but it doesn't fucking scare me in any way. The idea that someone could have his knee on his neck all fired up and ready to deal with "the race war"? And that he'd have the legal authority to do so? And that if no one took a video of him murdering me, he'd get away with it and probably do it again (George Floyd's murderer had killed multiple people in the past). That scares me.

So lets mark what actually matters here. "Justice" in the United States is being handed out by some really, really awful people. It doesn't resemble Justice. So how long can a manifestly unjust society survive before it collapses from internal stress? How long can it survive while still pretending its citizens are free?

[LittleRaven]

Maybe at some point people will tear down MLK's statues.

Ah, but the question will be "which people."

If, say, the black community decides in 30 years that MLK is no longer an appropriate symbol for them, and that its time for his statues to come down....then I suspect nobody will care.

If, say, the LGBT community decides that MLK is no longer an appropriate symbol for anyone and that its time to start tearing his statues down without consulting the black community...then I suspect things will not be so peaceful. Which group is in the wrong in that situation? The one tearing down statues of a flawed man, or the one glorifying the same flawed man's achievements?

We appear to have reached national consensus on the issue of Confederate monuments. Cities are officially taking them down all over the country, and the outcry is minimal. But I don't think the movement is going to be satisfied with merely taking down Confederate statues, and what happened in Madison looks like evidence of that to me.

That'll be then, and that'll be their society, not mine. It won't change anything about who MLK was or what he accomplished. History is not filled with saints and demons, it's filled with people, no one's historical record is completely one color (okay, maybe Heinrich Himmler, that guy never had the slightest thing resembling a redeeming characteristic that I ever heard of).

Himmler was, by all accounts, an exceptionally doting father to his daughter. She went to her grave defending him.

[GreyICE]

We appear to have reached national consensus on the issue of Confederate monuments. Cities are officially taking them down all over the country, and the outcry is minimal. But I don't think the movement is going to be satisfied with merely taking down Confederate statues, and what happened in Madison looks like evidence of that to me.

Yes, people are not going to be content if the extent of the reforms to our system to address systemic violence, repression, overpolicing, harassment, and racism is "removing some confederate monuments". It's nice, obviously, but if that's the sole action then it's going to be seen as not enough.

That should not come as a complete surprise. There weren't riots because of a Robert E. Lee monument.

[Darth Wedgius]

Remember the statues of George Washington or Ulysses Grant they built for themselves? Wait...

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Maybe at some point people will tear down MLK's statues.

Ah, but the question will be "which people."

My guess is white people.

[LittleRaven]

My guess is white people.

I certainly hope not. That would not go over well.