Picard - Remembrance

[Madner Kami]

I mean, yeah, you can prevent Romulus from being blown up by a Nova if you destroy the sun with a black hole instead, but Romulus is still screwed afterwards.

No, it isn't. You think so because of the resulting black hole being somehow magically a space vacuum-kind of thing? That's not how black holes work. If that star implodes into a black hole, it leaves a celestial body with (more or less) the same gravitational pull as the star had before. Outside of not emitting light, it's functionally identical to the sun it descends from in every relevant way.

Conversly, if your concern is the resulting lack of emitted energy, then that is no concern either. Romulus isn't circling that star-gone-black-hole, so it's reasonable to assume that the preceeding star had little to no effect on the level of energy going to Romulus. It won't suddenly be night, when there was day. At best, the Romulan sky will be missing a particularly bright star at night. Ok, it might have, depending on size and relative position, one less object that is similar in terms of levels of light as our moon, but that object wouldn't be that big all the time in the first place, given how far the star would be for considerable lengths of time anyways, due to the orbital mechanics and distances involved in binary star systems. At best, some species would get their life- or reproductive-cycle screwed up, similar to how some species on this planet have such cycles corresponding with our moon. An ecological disaster at "best", but not world-ending.

This leaves the initial explosion of the star going supernova and yes, a regular star that goes nova releases enough energy to still essentially evaporate the Earth's atmosphere within a circle of roughly 25 lightyears (though it would still take roughly 25 years for the energy to travel the distance). However, we know that Hobus is not a regular supernova-going star. It is much much smaller than it would need to, so it is likely that it doesn't emit enough energy to do that (in fact I'd argue, to reach the levels of energy needed to collapse a small star into a black hole, you'd need almost all the energy the star can release in an explosion to be "aimed", if not outright directed inwards, lessening the amount of energy that the star can emit in it's collapse in the first place and indicating artificial means by the by). Now it's up to debate how big Hobus and how far away it was from Romulus in the first place, but I'd argue that since it is never made a mention of Romulus being a binary system or that Romulus has literally two suns (and not just one sun and a really bright star on it's firmament), that Hobus is so far way to be functionally irrelevant for Romulus in every coneivable way (in stellar or orbital terms) and, in the case it implodes, the energies released outwards are limited by necessity and could be dampened if not completely negated by the planetary shields of Romulus.
The reason I think this may very well be the case are, several episodes of Star Trek showing ships being well within the range of stars going supernova and not enduring much damage or any damage at all even. In TNG's Tin Man, the Enterprise gets thrown into a distance of 3.8 billion kilometers from within a star stated to be going supernova and endures absolutely no damage by the explosive implosion. That is just above 0.0004 lightyears. In Voyager's "The Q and the Grey", it is mentioned that Voyager is the closest Starfleet vessel ever to osberve and endure a star going supernova, making a vague reference to "several billion kilometers". Let's assume it was just above 1 billion kilometer, which is still just above 0.0001 lightyears. I find it reasonable to argue, that Hobus must be a lot further away from the Romulus' system primary star than that and planetary shields are, obviously, much stronger than anything a starship can field.

[Link8909]

I mean, yeah, you can prevent Romulus from being blown up by a Nova if you destroy the sun with a black hole instead, but Romulus is still screwed afterwards.

No, it isn't. You think so because of the resulting black hole being somehow magically a space vacuum-kind of thing? That's not how black holes work. If that star implodes into a black hole, it leaves a celestial body with (more or less) the same gravitational pull as the star had before. Outside of not emitting light, it's functionally identical to the sun it descends from in every relevant way.

Conversly, if your concern is the resulting lack of emitted energy, then that is no concern either. Romulus isn't circling that star-gone-black-hole, so it's reasonable to assume that the preceeding star had little to no effect on the level of energy going to Romulus. It won't suddenly be night, when there was day. At best, the Romulan sky will be missing a particularly bright star at night. Ok, it might have, depending on size and relative position, one less object that is similar in terms of levels of light as our moon, but that object wouldn't be that big all the time in the first place, given how far the star would be for considerable lengths of time anyways, due to the orbital mechanics and distances involved in binary star systems. At best, some species would get their life- or reproductive-cycle screwed up, similar to how some species on this planet have such cycles corresponding with our moon. An ecological disaster at "best", but not world-ending.

This leaves the initial explosion of the star going supernova and yes, a regular star that goes nova releases enough energy to still essentially evaporate the Earth's atmosphere within a circle of roughly 25 lightyears (though it would still take roughly 25 years for the energy to travel the distance). However, we know that Hobus is not a regular supernova-going star. It is much much smaller than it would need to, so it is likely that it doesn't emit enough energy to do that (in fact I'd argue, to reach the levels of energy needed to collapse a small star into a black hole, you'd need almost all the energy the star can release in an explosion to be "aimed", if not outright directed inwards, lessening the amount of energy that the star can emit in it's collapse in the first place and indicating artificial means by the by). Now it's up to debate how big Hobus and how far away it was from Romulus in the first place, but I'd argue that since it is never made a mention of Romulus being a binary system or that Romulus has literally two suns (and not just one sun and a really bright star on it's firmament), that Hobus is so far way to be functionally irrelevant for Romulus in every coneivable way (in stellar or orbital terms) and, in the case it implodes, the energies released outwards are limited by necessity and could be dampened if not completely negated by the planetary shields of Romulus.
The reason I think this may very well be the case are, several episodes of Star Trek showing ships being well within the range of stars going supernova and not enduring much damage or any damage at all even. In TNG's Tin Man, the Enterprise gets thrown into a distance of 3.8 billion kilometers from within a star stated to be going supernova and endures absolutely no damage by the explosive implosion. That is just above 0.0004 lightyears. In Voyager's "The Q and the Grey", it is mentioned that Voyager is the closest Starfleet vessel ever to osberve and endure a star going supernova, making a vague reference to "several billion kilometers". Let's assume it was just above 1 billion kilometer, which is still just above 0.0001 lightyears. I find it reasonable to argue, that Hobus must be a lot further away from the Romulus' system primary star than that and planetary shields are, obviously, much stronger than anything a starship can field.

Yeah, the whole supernova threatening the galaxy that was in Star Trek (2009) was definitely not thought out well, it honesty makes more sense that the supernova was artificially caused by forces unknown to the rest of the Alpha Quadrant as expanded upon in Star Trek Online, that Hobus going nova caused a chain reaction that would eventually effect Romulus using unknown materials that broke the laws of physics.

Still, I’m glade we are finally starting to see the repercussions of the destruction of Romulus outside of beta material.

[tyrteg]

As a guy who's only major contribution to this Forum is his thesis-long post about why Star Trek Online is awesome - yes. I very much prefer the STO future with Romulans in general embracing Spock's Reunification movement after the shock and trauma of Hobus super-nova facing off with Tal Shiar, fighting in the Iconian War and finally together with Dominion under Odo's control coming to form a Grand Alliance with the Federation and the Klingon Empire. It's a future that Aron Eisenberg loved to contribute to (look up his enthusiastic interview about working on STO). Future narrated by Leonard Nimoy. With Tim Russ, Robert Picardo, Jeri Ryan, René Auberjonois and many other actors reprising their roles in a meaningful story that respects the characters the universe and most importantly - respects the fans of the franchise. And that is the one thing I feel ST: Picard doesn't do.

ST:Pic certainly challenges the fans of Trek and TNG especially - but it's not doing it from the position of friendly good-spirited competition. It acts like a schoolyard bully who steals your favorite comic-book and mocks you for it. Tears out it's pages and draws dicks on the heroes and always looks back at you to ask: "Is this triggering you? Is this upsetting you? Are you such a baby that you'll cry? Are you such a homophobe that you can't take our crudely drawn pics of Batman and Robin kissing?" Look up the words of the creators of ST: Pic. Look how they speak about the fans of Star Trek. Draw your own conclusion.

As for The Orville comparisons - it's pointless. Orville is a TV series in a genre that was pioneered by TOS and that was (until now) only populated by the Star Trek franchise (and possibly the Galaxy Quest movie and the Futurama) of - A starship Captain and his Crew engaging in dastardly adventures with "alien mystery of the week" solving it and riding off into the sunset to continue their adventures (and the status quo) in the next episode. Star Trek: Picard is simply a completely different genre of Sci-fi.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

ST:Pic certainly challenges the fans of Trek and TNG especially - but it's not doing it from the position of friendly good-spirited competition. It acts like a schoolyard bully who steals your favorite comic-book and mocks you for it. Tears out it's pages and draws dicks on the heroes and always looks back at you to ask: "Is this triggering you? Is this upsetting you? Are you such a baby that you'll cry? Are you such a homophobe that you can't take our crudely drawn pics of Batman and Robin kissing?" Look up the words of the creators of ST: Pic. Look how they speak about the fans of Star Trek. Draw your own conclusion.

I really get the picture here, but I've seen all of Trek aside from the game, and I don't find this show that offensive. Like I haven't played the game, but is that more or less essential to what you're talking about?

Game sounds intriguing btw.

[Worffan101]

I'll be interested to see what Chuck's eventual thoughts are. I personally found Picard to have some really good ideas, some not so good ideas, some bits that are great execution, and some that were pretty shit execution.

Still much better than STD despite its unevenness.

[hammerofglass]

The idea that the loss of the Romulous system was a serious threat to the Romulan Empire and the survival of the race really brings one of the oddities of the setting into focus. How are the Romulan and Klingon empires any threat to the Federation? They don't seem to have more than one or two worlds with a significant population or manufacturing base outside their home system; the Federation has thousands. Even the Cardassians had more significant colonies than either, and they were presented as a tin-pot autocracy that only remotely held their own against Starfleet because their enemies didn't actually want to fight and that the Klingons conquered in a day.

[Link8909]

ST:Pic certainly challenges the fans of Trek and TNG especially - but it's not doing it from the position of friendly good-spirited competition. It acts like a schoolyard bully who steals your favorite comic-book and mocks you for it. Tears out it's pages and draws dicks on the heroes and always looks back at you to ask: "Is this triggering you? Is this upsetting you? Are you such a baby that you'll cry? Are you such a homophobe that you can't take our crudely drawn pics of Batman and Robin kissing?" Look up the words of the creators of ST: Pic. Look how they speak about the fans of Star Trek. Draw your own conclusion.

I really get the picture here, but I've seen all of Trek aside from the game, and I don't find this show that offensive. Like I haven't played the game, but is that more or less essential to what you're talking about?

Game sounds intriguing btw.

Same here, while Star Trek Picard does go dark, and I think there should be a serious discussion on how much dark is too much, every other Star Trek show (even The Animated Series) has had several dark episodes, some of them are even consider classic episodes of Star Trek, Steve Shives did a resent episode on this that I recommend, so I'm not bothered that Star Trek Picard has a dark tone to it, but I definitely wouldn't say its as offensive, episodes like "Unexpected" "Code of Honor" "Up The Long Ladder" and "Profit and Lace" are the most offensive episode I can think of off the top of my head that do a disservice to the franchise, and regardless of how you feel about Star Trek Picard, it is not as bad as those episodes.

Also Star Trek Online is very good, while the game is very much a Star Trek toy box (which isn't a bad thing), there are a lot of missions in game that touch upon the lore of Star Trek in a meaningful way, and brings up some interesting themes and ideas in it own right.

[CrypticMirror]

Ep One of Picard is just too slow, too little happens. In fact too little happens in the whole first five episodes. The first five episodes contain so little story that they could fit the whole thing into the first half of Encounter at Far Point. It is not a failing unique to Picard, most tv these days moves far too slowly to be worth watching. Telling a snappy story is fast becoming a lost art as far as tv writing is concerned.

And it contains virtually a textbook fridging, Dahj only exists to be spitefully killed off so that Picard can be motivated. That really grates on me too. And we get another childish female scientist too. In fact there is only really one decent female character in the whole show, and that is his Romulan housekeeper. It is not great.

As for STO, it makes a great Battlestar Galactica Game.

[Madner Kami]

The idea that the loss of the Romulous system was a serious threat to the Romulan Empire and the survival of the race really brings one of the oddities of the setting into focus. How are the Romulan and Klingon empires any threat to the Federation? They don't seem to have more than one or two worlds with a significant population or manufacturing base outside their home system; the Federation has thousands. Even the Cardassians had more significant colonies than either, and they were presented as a tin-pot autocracy that only remotely held their own against Starfleet because their enemies didn't actually want to fight and that the Klingons conquered in a day.

We don't ever really see anything from either Empire beyond their homeworlds, to really judge how they'd fare under such circumstances. And even if they are overall well developed, then the loss of the capital, the majority of the empire's command structure (shortly after an attempted coup d'etat that already completely destroyed the original command structure) usually ends up with a fracturing of the governmental structure, historically speaking. This is particularly true for entities that are rather centralized by nature, e.g. dictatorships.

[CrypticMirror]

The idea that the loss of the Romulous system was a serious threat to the Romulan Empire and the survival of the race really brings one of the oddities of the setting into focus. How are the Romulan and Klingon empires any threat to the Federation? They don't seem to have more than one or two worlds with a significant population or manufacturing base outside their home system; the Federation has thousands. Even the Cardassians had more significant colonies than either, and they were presented as a tin-pot autocracy that only remotely held their own against Starfleet because their enemies didn't actually want to fight and that the Klingons conquered in a day.

We don't ever really see anything from either Empire beyond their homeworlds, to really judge how they'd fare under such circumstances. And even if they are overall well developed, then the loss of the capital, the majority of the empire's command structure (shortly after an attempted coup d'etat that already completely destroyed the original command structure) usually ends up with a fracturing of the governmental structure, historically speaking. This is particularly true for entities that are rather centralized by nature, e.g. dictatorships.

The way I look at it, the Federation has a lot of people but not a lot of citizens want to fight or -given that most of the founder worlds have been through massive global holocausts in their past- are even that much in favour of standing armies. The various Empires have smaller numbers of worlds to draw on, but those populations have larger percentages of people willing to fight. The Federation looked at war and said it was the last resort, the bad guys looked at war and though "yeehaw, sounds good to me" and so they pretty much balance each other out. A more military minded Federation would end up being the worst tyrant the Galaxy had ever seen, and knowing that is why Starfleet resisted putting the military mission at its forefront.