Picard - Remembrance

[LtDangerNoodles]

I'm curious because I didn't actually watch: Did Dahj actually receive the job title of "scientist" or was that a Chuck joke? Nobody ever posts a job listing as "Scientist." What's her field? Is she an astrophysicist? Cellular Biologist? Experimental Warp Theory Research? Or is this a stupid writer who wants to assert that he's into science, so he just inserts the word "science" into his writing without understanding it?

Dahj's role wasn't specified just that she'd been accepted into Daystrom from what I recall.

[Link8909]

Thats certainly understandable, gross out humor by its very nature can be gross and hard to watch. Though to be fair to the Orville there is nothing I recall like the vomit scene of FG, the semen joke was some alien squiring some blue fluid out of his head (top head, not bottom) and the pee joke was not graphic.

The optimism comes from the future being better. For all our current problems the 2000s are still (so far) better then the 1900s, much better then the 1800s in social problems, science, technology, and progress of all types. The future should hopefully be even better, not a return to the bad old days of brutal war, horrific injury, crippling poverty, deadly racism and genocide that even now despite all our accomplishments hasn't completely moved past (still waiting on that sequel to World War 2 no doubt directed by Micheal Bay). STD and Picard shows the future as just as bad if not worse, Discovery has society come out alright just because its a prequel and destroying the Federation is a bit of breaking canon even those guys won't do and Picard shows a society that is broken as heck complete with drug addicts living in trailers.

DS9 was dark while still showing the future could be brighter, despite a massive war and bending if not breaking of the rules and values of the Federation the people still tried to do what was right, still in the end things were going to be all right. The worlds of Discovery and Picard are not just dark in my opinion but depressing.

I'll admit I do laugh at bodily function jokes but atleast with the Orville that is the worst part and not because they are gross, just the show itself in my opinion is fantastic without having to appeal to the Family Guy "flatulence is the height of humor" crowd. I do find farts funny as I despite being only a few years from middle age still apparently has the mind of a middle schooler but I certainly don't want the show for that sort of stuff. The show is far less juvenile then the trailers made it seem.

I think you make a very good point, while every show in the franchise (even The Animated Series) has their far share of dark episodes, and a many of them are considered classics, I think the issue comes down to the consistency of a dark tone in these new series, partially with Season 1 of Discovery, past Star Trek shows were episodic and could tell different styles of stories each week, so one episode could be like “The Doomsday Machine” where you have a Starfleet Commodore having a mental breakdown over losing his entire crew to a planet devouring monstrosity, and a few episodes later we have “The Trouble With Tribbles” where our hero gets humiliated by cute little balls of fluff.

However Discovery and Picard are serialized stories and keeps a consistent tone throughout, the only past Star Trek series to have a consistent tone to it was Season 3 of Enterprise, and it was a very dark tone as well (And I personally think is a lot more depressing than Discovery and Picard combined), even Deep Space Nine was able to shift tones each episode even during the Dominion War, and giving the fact as well that this was the first show in over a decade and people were expecting a more "traditional" Star Trek series, the best example I can give is if instead of The Next Generation back in 1987 it was instead Deep Space Nine starting with Call To Arms (at the end of season 5) with little context for prier events.

Bare in mind theirs nothing wrong with serialised stories, in fact it has allowed these new stories to breath more and characters to grow without the reset button looming over them, and as I said I'm ok with Season 1 of Star Trek Picard having a dark tone to it, I think with hindsight Season 1 of Discovery shouldn’t have dealt with such heavy topics and instead have started as fun and adventurous much like Season 2 was, then have a series like Picard that does have a dark tone to it, and I personally think the creators realise this as well, because we are getting multiple different Star Trek series with very different styles to them, Season 3 of Discovery is going to a have a different tone to it, Strange New Worlds is being promoted as a return to classic trek, we have a comedy series with Lower Decks and a family friendly animated series in development, so I thing we can have Star Trek Picard touch on some dark elements of the franchise much like Deep Space Nine did when it was airing along side The Next Generation and Voyager.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Thats certainly understandable, gross out humor by its very nature can be gross and hard to watch. Though to be fair to the Orville there is nothing I recall like the vomit scene of FG, the semen joke was some alien squiring some blue fluid out of his head (top head, not bottom) and the pee joke was not graphic.

So you didn't watch the episode, where Captain Whining-Wind-Bag and Mister Smarty-Pants where in that shuttle, that flew into the 2-D-Space? Granted, it was not a vomit-vulcano, Mister Smarty-Pants just said "you might not feel well" and next we saw him vomiting to his right side.

And the whole idea, that Mister Smarty-Pants put a part of his crewmember Yaphit on the buffet that's ending up being eaten by Not-Worf, - yuck.

I have to say, I have seen this whole episode done better and more competent in Star Trek Voyagers episode "Parallax".

The optimism comes from the future being better. For all our current problems the 2000s are still (so far) better then the 1900s, much better then the 1800s in social problems, science, technology, and progress of all types. The future should hopefully be even better, not a return to the bad old days of brutal war, horrific injury, crippling poverty, deadly racism and genocide that even now despite all our accomplishments hasn't completely moved past (still waiting on that sequel to World War 2 no doubt directed by Micheal Bay). STD and Picard shows the future as just as bad if not worse, Discovery has society come out alright just because its a prequel and destroying the Federation is a bit of breaking canon even those guys won't do and Picard shows a society that is broken as heck complete with drug addicts living in trailers.

But there is no optimism in "Orville" - or better: the same kind of "optimism", that SFDebris criticized in the early episodes of TNG. Holier than thou-attitude and all. Although I have to say: I have nothing against the optimism of early TNG - I just have something against gross-out-humour in my Trek.

Concerning the optimism of Picard and Discovery - you said, that "the future should hopefully be even better" - which is a tall order, when you realize, what happened to those characters.
They survived several events of near apocalyptic dimensions.
Try to think about it that way: The battle of Wolf 359 happened round about 2367, the dominion war took place between 2373 and 2375, with a cold war starting 2370 with the kidnapping of Sisko and the destruction of the USS Odyssey. We have a civil war in the federation (Federation vs. Maquis), one year later, the USS Voyager is vanishing in the Delta-Quadrant, there are several attempts to take over the federation, another Borg Invasion in Sector 001, then the whole Son'A-Bak'U-dynamic happens and there was a clone of Picard running the romulan Empire. And to top all of that, the Star in the heart of the romulan Star Empire decides to go Supernova, which leads to the (perceived) death of Spock.

Now tell me - how do you want to tell great, optimistic stories, if everything, that can go to hell, goes to hell? .

DS9 was dark while still showing the future could be brighter, despite a massive war and bending if not breaking of the rules and values of the Federation the people still tried to do what was right, still in the end things were going to be all right. The worlds of Discovery and Picard are not just dark in my opinion but depressing.

They tried to do, what's right? Yeah, tell that to the victims of Section 31. Tell that to Odo, who had to sacrifice his personal luck with Colonel Kira Nerys, the love of his live, in order to save the Great Link. "Yeah, sorry you had to join the great link, but - hey, there is a silver lining: The Federation and the Dominion won't kill each other!"

I'm sure, that will keep Kira warm during the nights - the knowledge, that her boyfriend was saving the Galaxy.
Say "it's optimistic" to Jake and Kasidy, who lost father and husband to the prophets. I'm sure, everything is hunky-dory to them.

Let's be honest here: the dark and grim setting of Picard is a logical conclusion to all these "a bit dark"-story-arcs that happened during Deep Space Nine. It is a progression - and let me put it this way: You, who didn't protest against that, but said "Hey, it's so refreshingly different" enabled Picards more dour tone.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

I'm curious because I didn't actually watch: Did Dahj actually receive the job title of "scientist" or was that a Chuck joke? Nobody ever posts a job listing as "Scientist." What's her field? Is she an astrophysicist? Cellular Biologist? Experimental Warp Theory Research? Or is this a stupid writer who wants to assert that he's into science, so he just inserts the word "science" into his writing without understanding it?

Her fields seem to be AI-related, huge surprise I know.

The Daystrom Institute has been mentioned through multiple series and seems to me like they are focused on Computer Science in general, although I might be wrong and they might have other faculties but we haven't seen those graduates on-screen or I have forgotten them.

Dahj's sister on the other hand isn't in STEM at all and is an anthropologist.

[Link8909]

But there is no optimism in "Orville" - or better: the same kind of "optimism", that SFDebris criticized in the early episodes of TNG. Holier than thou-attitude and all. Although I have to say: I have nothing against the optimism of early TNG - I just have something against gross-out-humour in my Trek.

Concerning the optimism of Picard and Discovery - you said, that "the future should hopefully be even better" - which is a tall order, when you realize, what happened to those characters.
They survived several events of near apocalyptic dimensions.
Try to think about it that way: The battle of Wolf 359 happened round about 2367, the dominion war took place between 2373 and 2375, with a cold war starting 2370 with the kidnapping of Sisko and the destruction of the USS Odyssey. We have a civil war in the federation (Federation vs. Maquis), one year later, the USS Voyager is vanishing in the Delta-Quadrant, there are several attempts to take over the federation, another Borg Invasion in Sector 001, then the whole Son'A-Bak'U-dynamic happens and there was a clone of Picard running the romulan Empire. And to top all of that, the Star in the heart of the romulan Star Empire decides to go Supernova, which leads to the (perceived) death of Spock.

Now tell me - how do you want to tell great, optimistic stories, if everything, that can go to hell, goes to hell? .

Definitely, with all the events that happened to the Federation between Picard taking command of the Enterprise-D to him resigning for Starfleet as you laid out, the turbulent if not out right hostile relationship with the Romulan Star Empire that has been around in universe since before there was even a Federation, and Starfleet's policy of none intervention in the form of General Order 1, it's very easy to see the Star Trek universe going the way it did in Star Trek Picard after Deep Space Nine and Nemesis.

It even gets worse in Star Trek Online, long story short, when the supernova destroyed Romulus it left a power vacuum that the Klingons took advantage of, the Federation didn't approve and when you start the game the Federation and Klingons are at war.

What balances out all this is the fact that Picard himself doesn't agree with Starfleet's decision, that as he says he left Starfleet because it wasn't Starfleet anymore, not the one he dedicated his life to serving, Star Trek Picard does not frame what the Federation did as a right or moral thing, but they did not frame it as them being evil or stupid either, it's just a very complicated situation.

[AndrewGPaul]

I'm curious because I didn't actually watch: Did Dahj actually receive the job title of "scientist" or was that a Chuck joke? Nobody ever posts a job listing as "Scientist." What's her field? Is she an astrophysicist? Cellular Biologist? Experimental Warp Theory Research? Or is this a stupid writer who wants to assert that he's into science, so he just inserts the word "science" into his writing without understanding it?

What’s the problem? “Scientist” is a perfectly good description for the position she’d just been offered.

[PerrySimm]

High point of the review was "Professor Gun Kata"

[drcakey]

I would say I've been looking forward to this, but it'd be more accurate to say I've been dreading the possibility Chuck has anything nice to say about Star Trek: Picard. Because STP is...phew, it's rough in ways I didn't know a TV show could be. In something that cost $8 million an episode, I should not be complaining about the fucking audio mix.

And after this first review I remain in suspense, because Chuck hasn't really said...anything about it, positive or negative. He didn't do much beyond report the events and make some jokes, because that's what STP is: a series of events.

I mean. This episode is so barren of actual content that it fits in multiple dream sequences.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

I would say I've been looking forward to this, but it'd be more accurate to say I've been dreading the possibility Chuck has anything nice to say about Star Trek: Picard. Because STP is...phew, it's rough in ways I didn't know a TV show could be. In something that cost $8 million an episode, I should not be complaining about the fucking audio mix.

And after this first review I remain in suspense, because Chuck hasn't really said...anything about it, positive or negative. He didn't do much beyond report the events and make some jokes, because that's what STP is: a series of events.

I mean. This episode is so barren of actual content that it fits in multiple dream sequences.

Sorry, I'm German, it's early in the morning over here and I hadn't had my first glass of Cola, which I drink instead of coffee, so - maybe I am having difficulties to translate, what you've been saing, but: "to dread" means to be afraid of, right?

So, you were afraid, that Chuck would be saying something nice about STP?
Does that mean, you were afraid, that he would've said anything nice about the show - something like "it looks nice" - if so... why? Because you hate the show?

if that's the case: I cannot understand you. See, I like everything Trek-related and Stargate related and if Chuck reviews something, where I'm positive, that he'll say something negative about it, I either watch it and think "Well, his catchphrase was "I'm just a viewer with an opinion" and he calls his reviews "opinionated". So, this his his opinion, that is your opinion, and everyone is entitled to his / her own opinion - or I simply don't watch it.

So either you say "Meh, Chuck might like this one, I don't, but I still watch it, because he's a funny guy" or you say "I think I'm gonna sit this one out."

Concerning the audio mix: Well, that's nothing new. That bad habit is very old, to be exact - at least some twenty years. The Matrix is the first movie, where I noticed that the music was too loud and the dialogue was too silent.

And if I can predict Chuck correctly, I'm sure, he's gonna have to say some things about STP that will make you happy.

[tyrteg]

ST:Pic certainly challenges the fans of Trek and TNG especially - but it's not doing it from the position of friendly good-spirited competition. It acts like a schoolyard bully who steals your favorite comic-book and mocks you for it. Tears out it's pages and draws dicks on the heroes and always looks back at you to ask: "Is this triggering you? Is this upsetting you? Are you such a baby that you'll cry? Are you such a homophobe that you can't take our crudely drawn pics of Batman and Robin kissing?" Look up the words of the creators of ST: Pic. Look how they speak about the fans of Star Trek. Draw your own conclusion.

I really get the picture here, but I've seen all of Trek aside from the game, and I don't find this show that offensive. Like I haven't played the game, but is that more or less essential to what you're talking about?

Game sounds intriguing btw.

I respectfully disagree but most of the arguments and counter-arguments about this topic have already been made here in this discussion or in other places such as on Reddit and it inevitably comes to two points. Creator's intentions and my personal reaction to the TV series. For the creator's intentions I advise everyone to read the interview that Variety did with the Showrunner of season 1 - Michael Chabon here: https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/michael-chabon-star-trek-picard-1203544717/

I especially want to point to the question in the interview:

So were there things about “Picard” that you knew you wanted to do that you could sense would test some boundaries for fans?

and his answer

Sure. To the extent that I was aware of the kind of toxic fandom, the anti-SJW, you know, sad little corner of fandom — you just disregard that. Sometimes you’re motivated to have things simply because it’s possibly going to piss off or provoke people who seem to have missed the memo about just what exactly “Star Trek” is and always has been all about.

This is exact and full quote of his answer on the topic (in the next paragraph he goes to answer fan reaction to deaths of fan favorite characters like Icheb.) And I don't think even the authors of the most divisive parts of Star Trek like DS9 or Enterprise would outright respond the way he did. That sometimes they want to intentionally aggravate and provoke those fans who liked Gene's vision of optimistic Star Trek whom he lumps together with buzzwords of "toxic fans" and "anti-SJWs". Nor do I think any of the other showrunners would claim that they themselves are the only ones deciding what Star Trek "is and always has been all about" The "has been always about" part being especially infuriating because it sounds to me personally like attempts of "rewriting the history to suit current political views" which is never warranted.

So in my view - the creator's intentions of ST:Pic are less than stellar and even with my best attempt to give it a chance I couldn't force myself to finish watching Season 1 and stopped shortly after the Riker&Troi episode because I wasn't enjoying myself and I already had a better version of the story of Trek's future in Star Trek Online. As for the game itself I've already given my opinion and experience with
ST:O here: https://sfdebris.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4215&start=32

What I will add to my original statement is that with the sad passing of Aron Eisenberg and René Auberjonois ST:O is the last time we will ever get them reprising their roles and I'm just glad that it has been a majestic and worthy outing in ST:O Gamma Quadrant with Captain Nog of U.S.S. Chimera and Odo leading his own Dominion fleet and bringing justice to the Jem 'Hadaar (who are a playable race) which resulted in a "grand faux-season of DS9" to quote Charles Phipps review (warning includes spoilers) as found here: https://sfdebris.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4215&start=65