Remember how the Mainstream Media said they won't be coming for Jefferson and Washington Next?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

I'm just saying what I've read and not from sources pandering to confederate nostalgia.

Yes, the lost cause shit had a way of infiltrating many sources. Back before the internet, you really were limited to what books people put out, and oh boy they put out books. That lead to it creeping in to other stuff. Ripping it all out by the roots has been annoying.

But 32% of the white population being slaveowners isn't exactly this idea that "only a few rich families owned slaves", is it? It's more like "a third of the population."

Toss in that many non-slaveowning white people worked for slaveowners, had customers who were slaveowners, purchased products made by slaves, and wow, it starts to look like most of the economy was directly interacting with and benefiting from slavery. That's not quite the picture that the lost cause narrative paints, is it?

okay but some of them must have not cared or were against the Confederate cause. I just can't believe they were Always Chaotic Evil.

and why are they also talking down statures of Teddy Roosevelt and fucking Lincoln?

[GreyICE]

okay but some of them must have not cared or were against the Confederate cause. I just can't believe they were Always Chaotic Evil.

I'm pretty sure anyone who fought and died for the confederate cause was pretty pro-confederate. Or at least wasn't against taking slaveholders' money to go fight for their right to own slaves and make sure "the Negro knows that subordination is his place." This wasn't really a secret agenda, that's their speech on kicking the whole thing off.

Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable saying the entire army was fine with slavery.

and why are they also talking down statures of Teddy Roosevelt and fucking Lincoln?

This statue of Lincoln?



This one? The one they're taking down?

I dunno man, I think that's a pretty unfortunate statue of Lincoln. I'm sure there's better ones. Like this one, this one was a lot better:



Want to know something funny? That statue they're taking down? It's a copy. Yeah, it's so historically valuable that it's a bad copy of the original.

Guess the historical value of copies of statues. They're like dorm posters of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

[GreyICE]

The original by the way:



This is what I mean about a lot of statues having zero artistic value. The fucking copy screwed up so many things about this statue it's hard to know where to start. Very much a case of hack artist in action. It's like a college student's copy of an artwork.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

okay but some of them must have not cared or were against the Confederate cause. I just can't believe they were Always Chaotic Evil.

I'm pretty sure anyone who fought and died for the confederate cause was pretty pro-confederate. Or at least wasn't against taking slaveholders' money to go fight for their right to own slaves and make sure "the Negro knows that subordination is his place." This wasn't really a secret agenda, that's their speech on kicking the whole thing off.

I think it's pretty probable that there were plenty of people fighting despite their regard for slavery. Not that that impacts what's being discussed or anything.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I'm just saying what I've read and not from sources pandering to confederate nostalgia.

Yes, the lost cause shit had a way of infiltrating many sources. Back before the internet, you really were limited to what books people put out, and oh boy they put out books. That lead to it creeping in to other stuff. Ripping it all out by the roots has been annoying.

But 32% of the white population being slaveowners isn't exactly this idea that "only a few rich families owned slaves", is it? It's more like "a third of the population."

Toss in that many non-slaveowning white people worked for slaveowners, had customers who were slaveowners, purchased products made by slaves, and wow, it starts to look like most of the economy was directly interacting with and benefiting from slavery. That's not quite the picture that the lost cause narrative paints, is it?

okay but some of them must have not cared or were against the Confederate cause. I just can't believe they were Always Chaotic Evil.

“There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.” ― Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

[Dragon Ball Fan]

I'm just saying what I've read and not from sources pandering to confederate nostalgia.

Yes, the lost cause shit had a way of infiltrating many sources. Back before the internet, you really were limited to what books people put out, and oh boy they put out books. That lead to it creeping in to other stuff. Ripping it all out by the roots has been annoying.

But 32% of the white population being slaveowners isn't exactly this idea that "only a few rich families owned slaves", is it? It's more like "a third of the population."

Toss in that many non-slaveowning white people worked for slaveowners, had customers who were slaveowners, purchased products made by slaves, and wow, it starts to look like most of the economy was directly interacting with and benefiting from slavery. That's not quite the picture that the lost cause narrative paints, is it?

okay but some of them must have not cared or were against the Confederate cause. I just can't believe they were Always Chaotic Evil.

“There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.” ― Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

so, all the German solders and civilians in WW2 were also guilty of genocide?

[GreyICE]

so, all the German solders and civilians in WW2 were also guilty of genocide?

Civilians? No. Soldiers? Yes.

The lost cause myth and the myth of the good Nazi share a lot of resemblance actually.
Key is that they didn't actually do anything about all these bad feelings they supposedly had.

Oskar Schindler was a good Nazi - he spent every penny he had saving Jewish people from the concentration camps, until he was penniless, broke, bankrupt. He spent every time and effort, was arrested twice, and had associates executed, all in his drive to allow Jewish prisoners to escape Nazi concentration camps. When asked why after the war he said "I felt that the Jews were being destroyed. I had to help them; there was no choice."

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/oskar-schindler
https://www.yadvashem.org/righteous/stories/schindler.html

Was there a confederate absolutely dedicated to helping the slaves escape? One who turned all they had to freeing slaves, buying slaves, emancipating slaves? Setting up underground railroads for them to escape the way Schindler had his black markets that moved Jewish people? Sneaking them out at night? They were a good confederate.

Did they go shoot Union soldiers, but 150 years later someone claims they probably felt bad about all the black people being worked to death and whipped to death, and raped to death? Hmmm. No.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

so, all the German solders and civilians in WW2 were also guilty of genocide?

Civilians? No. Soldiers? Yes.

The lost cause myth and the myth of the good Nazi share a lot of resemblance actually.
Key is that they didn't actually do anything about all these bad feelings they supposedly had.

Oskar Schindler was a good Nazi - he spent every penny he had saving Jewish people from the concentration camps, until he was penniless, broke, bankrupt. He spent every time and effort, was arrested twice, and had associates executed, all in his drive to allow Jewish prisoners to escape Nazi concentration camps. When asked why after the war he said "I felt that the Jews were being destroyed. I had to help them; there was no choice."

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/oskar-schindler
https://www.yadvashem.org/righteous/stories/schindler.html

Was there a confederate absolutely dedicated to helping the slaves escape? One who turned all they had to freeing slaves, buying slaves, emancipating slaves? Setting up underground railroads for them to escape the way Schindler had his black markets that moved Jewish people? Sneaking them out at night? They were a good confederate.

Did they go shoot Union soldiers, but 150 years later someone claims they probably felt bad about all the black people being worked to death and whipped to death, and raped to death? Hmmm. No.

there must have been someone like Sindler in the Confederacy even if I can't name them. and since the confederacy made it illegal for slave owners to release their slaves, there could possibly have been owners, say, though inheritance, were stuck being slave owners even if they didn't want to be.

[GreyICE]

there must have been someone like Sindler in the Confederacy even if I can't name them. and since the confederacy made it illegal for slave owners to release their slaves, there could possibly have been owners, say, though inheritance, were stuck being slave owners even if they didn't want to be.

Then they absolutely could have taken their slaves north, and released them in the north, where they could be emancipated. Schindler spent his entire fortune, risked execution by the Nazis multiple times, was investigated by the motherfucking SS, and got prisoners released from Auschwitz under false pretenses. Something they'd have killed him for instantly had they had the slightest idea. He falsified records so overwhelmingly that his so-called arms factory produced a single load of ammunition in all the time it was open (despite records stating it was shipping it out on the regular). It was literally a full-time smuggling operation for Jewish prisoners. Schindler personally helped nurse Jewish people on a death train back to health, and had Jewish funerals for the hundreds of dead on the train, rather than having the Nazis bury them in a mass grave (that's what they normally did). Secretly, of course, because again, execution the instant they find out.

I think this "reluctant slave owner" could take a two week trip. I feel that's a baseline minimum standard to be a decent person, yes. If instead he signed up to go shoot at American soldiers to preserve the right to subjugate and enslave black people, and ensure that no black person would ever be thought of as a white man's equal, well... this kinda answers itself, doesn't it?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Supposedly a girl I went to school with whose name was Schindler was related to him.

I think this "reluctant slave owner" could take a two week trip. I feel that's a baseline minimum standard to be a decent person, yes. If instead he signed up to go shoot at American soldiers to preserve the right to subjugate and enslave black people, and ensure that no black person would ever be thought of as a white man's equal, well... this kinda answers itself, doesn't it?

Right, it's like who cares at a certain point?

We do a lot of nature vs nurture to applicate to critical race theory for instance, but we don't just forget what's actually going on.