Remember how the Mainstream Media said they won't be coming for Jefferson and Washington Next?

[Antiboyscout]

People had every bit the moral autonomy they did today Mark Twain grew up in the South in the 1800s. He was anti-racist and feminist, fighting for black people and women to be considered equal. Did he know it was wrong? Fucking yes, obviously he did. There's a reason he's the greatest American author (Sorry Poe). Mark Twain was hardly alone? So how come slave owners and overseers, those who benefited and profited from the enslavement of other human beings, not have known it was wrong?

Do you realize how often petitions to censor or ban Mark Twain's works show up, and it's not the KKK doing that. I have heard progressive and black activist unironically denigrate the man as "just another white dude" and "a man of his time".

This is why I don't believe all these activists and there accusations of "racism everywhere" cuz if that is there "standard" then everything is f*cked.

[Darth Wedgius]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

You're wrong. Again. It's like it's a day ending with a Y.

A lot of them thought slavery was natural. Hell, that's been the most common attitude throughout history. Greeks and Romans had slaves. Native Americans had slaves. Africans had slaves. Some still do.

[phantom000]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

You're wrong. Again. It's like it's a day ending with a Y.

A lot of them thought slavery was natural. Hell, that's been the most common attitude throughout history. Greeks and Romans had slaves. Native Americans had slaves. Africans had slaves. Some still do.

Every civilization in the history of the world has practiced slavery. The catch, is that each has had their own ideas for how it worked. Remember, in the Ottoman Empire, the Vizier, one of if not the most powerful individual in the empire was technically a slave, as were the Janissaries.

In Islamic culture, 'slave' was not property so much as a class of society. A slave was someone who had no connection, and thus no loyalties, to anyone aside from their master. It was also accepted that you could not enslave another muslim and many places had written laws that if a slave converted they were to be immediately freed, no questions asked. Of course that did not happen as often as one might expect as it was a time when most people took religion much more seriously.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

You're wrong. Again. It's like it's a day ending with a Y.

A lot of them thought slavery was natural. Hell, that's been the most common attitude throughout history. Greeks and Romans had slaves. Native Americans had slaves. Africans had slaves. Some still do.

Every civilization in the history of the world has practiced slavery. The catch, is that each has had their own ideas for how it worked. Remember, in the Ottoman Empire, the Vizier, one of if not the most powerful individual in the empire was technically a slave, as were the Janissaries.

In Islamic culture, 'slave' was not property so much as a class of society. A slave was someone who had no connection, and thus no loyalties, to anyone aside from their master. It was also accepted that you could not enslave another muslim and many places had written laws that if a slave converted they were to be immediately freed, no questions asked. Of course that did not happen as often as one might expect as it was a time when most people took religion much more seriously.

Yeah but I don't think the degree of capitalism really changes anything except for the owners having a degree of autonomy and directive. Does that have implications on each person? Perhaps, but that was pretty much how anything worked back then before development and industrialization. Customs dictated that you ran your own operation, and not so much coop groupings no matter what operation you were involved in.

Also, I'm curious about how prevalent non-slave plantations ran in the South for instance. I'm not sure if the North had to outlaw it on mass, but I thought there was a good deal of market dependency involved.

[GreyICE]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

You're wrong. Again. It's like it's a day ending with a Y.

A lot of them thought slavery was natural. Hell, that's been the most common attitude throughout history. Greeks and Romans had slaves. Native Americans had slaves. Africans had slaves. Some still do.

Why am I not surprised that a so-called conservative fails to give anyone moral authority or autonomy, and is defending slavery?

"Just following orders" is your fucking campaign slogan. Well, when it's not "Blood and Soil."

[Dragon Ball Fan]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

You're wrong. Again. It's like it's a day ending with a Y.

A lot of them thought slavery was natural. Hell, that's been the most common attitude throughout history. Greeks and Romans had slaves. Native Americans had slaves. Africans had slaves. Some still do.

Every civilization in the history of the world has practiced slavery. The catch, is that each has had their own ideas for how it worked. Remember, in the Ottoman Empire, the Vizier, one of if not the most powerful individual in the empire was technically a slave, as were the Janissaries.

In Islamic culture, 'slave' was not property so much as a class of society. A slave was someone who had no connection, and thus no loyalties, to anyone aside from their master. It was also accepted that you could not enslave another muslim and many places had written laws that if a slave converted they were to be immediately freed, no questions asked. Of course that did not happen as often as one might expect as it was a time when most people took religion much more seriously.

if you're willing to apply mitigating factors to other forms of slavery over history, why not American Slavery?

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

People had every bit the moral autonomy they did today Mark Twain grew up in the South in the 1800s. He was anti-racist and feminist, fighting for black people and women to be considered equal. Did he know it was wrong? Fucking yes, obviously he did. There's a reason he's the greatest American author (Sorry Poe). Mark Twain was hardly alone? So how come slave owners and overseers, those who benefited and profited from the enslavement of other human beings, not have known it was wrong?

They didn't want to, that's why. They could have. They didn't want to. They chose to support rape, murder, beatings, torture, and a short life of brutal labor for other human beings. They could have done otherwise. They didn't.

Yes, that makes them evil.

I would agree with you but there is some serious cognitive dissidence going on for me, like a sources I've seen/read say George Washington told his slaves to be freed after he died and one was his best friend.

If he really cared about them, he would free them >>before<< he died. Freeing them after he dies isn't a good act, it's the act of somebody who knows better trying to soothe his conscience without actually giving up any of his worldly wealth.

As for the claims that a slave was his best friend, do we have any sources for that written by the man who could have been sold or murdered without consequence if George Washington didn't like how he acted?

Handsome is as handsome does.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

People had every bit the moral autonomy they did today Mark Twain grew up in the South in the 1800s. He was anti-racist and feminist, fighting for black people and women to be considered equal. Did he know it was wrong? Fucking yes, obviously he did. There's a reason he's the greatest American author (Sorry Poe). Mark Twain was hardly alone? So how come slave owners and overseers, those who benefited and profited from the enslavement of other human beings, not have known it was wrong?

They didn't want to, that's why. They could have. They didn't want to. They chose to support rape, murder, beatings, torture, and a short life of brutal labor for other human beings. They could have done otherwise. They didn't.

Yes, that makes them evil.

I would agree with you but there is some serious cognitive dissidence going on for me, like a sources I've seen/read say George Washington told his slaves to be freed after he died and one was his best friend.

If he really cared about them, he would free them >>before<< he died. Freeing them after he dies isn't a good act, it's the act of somebody who knows better trying to soothe his conscience without actually giving up any of his worldly wealth.

As for the claims that a slave was his best friend, do we have any sources for that written by the man who could have been sold or murdered without consequence if George Washington didn't like how he acted?

Handsome is as handsome does.

I just still don't know. the founding fathers did really good things and I just can't fathom bad people doing such good things. again, your evil is as evil does is way to simplistic, it also has to do with nature and nurture. was George Washington a psychopath or a sadist? good people can do evil things and still ultimately be good people.

and one of my own high school teachers said some slaves stayed with their masters after being freed. and before you say they had Stockholm Syndrome, they'd have to meet specific circumstantial criteria and exhibit specific symptoms, there is more to it then just "staying with someone who did something bad to you". you can't prove every single one of them had the syndrome.

[GreyICE]

Rioters destroying history, circa 1776.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

People had every bit the moral autonomy they did today Mark Twain grew up in the South in the 1800s. He was anti-racist and feminist, fighting for black people and women to be considered equal. Did he know it was wrong? Fucking yes, obviously he did. There's a reason he's the greatest American author (Sorry Poe). Mark Twain was hardly alone? So how come slave owners and overseers, those who benefited and profited from the enslavement of other human beings, not have known it was wrong?

They didn't want to, that's why. They could have. They didn't want to. They chose to support rape, murder, beatings, torture, and a short life of brutal labor for other human beings. They could have done otherwise. They didn't.

Yes, that makes them evil.

I would agree with you but there is some serious cognitive dissidence going on for me, like a sources I've seen/read say George Washington told his slaves to be freed after he died and one was his best friend.

If he really cared about them, he would free them >>before<< he died. Freeing them after he dies isn't a good act, it's the act of somebody who knows better trying to soothe his conscience without actually giving up any of his worldly wealth.

As for the claims that a slave was his best friend, do we have any sources for that written by the man who could have been sold or murdered without consequence if George Washington didn't like how he acted?

Handsome is as handsome does.

I just still don't know. the founding fathers did really good things and I just can't fathom bad people doing such good things. again, your evil is as evil does is way to simplistic, it also has to do with nature and nurture. was George Washington a psychopath or a sadist? good people can do evil things and still ultimately be good people.

and one of my own high school teachers said some slaves stayed with their masters after being freed. and before you say they had Stockholm Syndrome, they'd have to meet specific circumstantial criteria and exhibit specific symptoms, there is more to it then just "staying with someone who did something bad to you". you can't prove every single one of them had the syndrome.

Oh I wouldn't even suggest Stockholm Syndrome is a thing.

You don't have to be a psychopath or a sadist to be evil. Your problem is viewing evil people as fundamentally different sub-species, with quintessential different minds and motives, rather than individuals who gave into selfishness, cruelty, or moral sloth more often than they stood up for what was right, doing the easy or expedient thing more than they did the hard and noble thing, etc.