Remember how the Mainstream Media said they won't be coming for Jefferson and Washington Next?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

People had every bit the moral autonomy they did today Mark Twain grew up in the South in the 1800s. He was anti-racist and feminist, fighting for black people and women to be considered equal. Did he know it was wrong? Fucking yes, obviously he did. There's a reason he's the greatest American author (Sorry Poe). Mark Twain was hardly alone? So how come slave owners and overseers, those who benefited and profited from the enslavement of other human beings, not have known it was wrong?

They didn't want to, that's why. They could have. They didn't want to. They chose to support rape, murder, beatings, torture, and a short life of brutal labor for other human beings. They could have done otherwise. They didn't.

Yes, that makes them evil.

I would agree with you but there is some serious cognitive dissidence going on for me, like a sources I've seen/read say George Washington told his slaves to be freed after he died and one was his best friend.

If he really cared about them, he would free them >>before<< he died. Freeing them after he dies isn't a good act, it's the act of somebody who knows better trying to soothe his conscience without actually giving up any of his worldly wealth.

As for the claims that a slave was his best friend, do we have any sources for that written by the man who could have been sold or murdered without consequence if George Washington didn't like how he acted?

Handsome is as handsome does.

I just still don't know. the founding fathers did really good things and I just can't fathom bad people doing such good things. again, your evil is as evil does is way to simplistic, it also has to do with nature and nurture. was George Washington a psychopath or a sadist? good people can do evil things and still ultimately be good people.

and one of my own high school teachers said some slaves stayed with their masters after being freed. and before you say they had Stockholm Syndrome, they'd have to meet specific circumstantial criteria and exhibit specific symptoms, there is more to it then just "staying with someone who did something bad to you". you can't prove every single one of them had the syndrome.

Oh I wouldn't even suggest Stockholm Syndrome is a thing.

You don't have to be a psychopath or a sadist to be evil. Your problem is viewing evil people as fundamentally different sub-species, with quintessential different minds and motives, rather than individuals who gave into selfishness, cruelty, or moral sloth more often than they stood up for what was right, doing the easy or expedient thing more than they did the hard and noble thing, etc.

but I still can't accept that because my moral compass would not allow me to do anything even slightly wrong unless it was for an objective greater good, so I can't imagine anyone else doing so either.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

People had every bit the moral autonomy they did today Mark Twain grew up in the South in the 1800s. He was anti-racist and feminist, fighting for black people and women to be considered equal. Did he know it was wrong? Fucking yes, obviously he did. There's a reason he's the greatest American author (Sorry Poe). Mark Twain was hardly alone? So how come slave owners and overseers, those who benefited and profited from the enslavement of other human beings, not have known it was wrong?

They didn't want to, that's why. They could have. They didn't want to. They chose to support rape, murder, beatings, torture, and a short life of brutal labor for other human beings. They could have done otherwise. They didn't.

Yes, that makes them evil.

I would agree with you but there is some serious cognitive dissidence going on for me, like a sources I've seen/read say George Washington told his slaves to be freed after he died and one was his best friend.

If he really cared about them, he would free them >>before<< he died. Freeing them after he dies isn't a good act, it's the act of somebody who knows better trying to soothe his conscience without actually giving up any of his worldly wealth.

As for the claims that a slave was his best friend, do we have any sources for that written by the man who could have been sold or murdered without consequence if George Washington didn't like how he acted?

Handsome is as handsome does.

I just still don't know. the founding fathers did really good things and I just can't fathom bad people doing such good things. again, your evil is as evil does is way to simplistic, it also has to do with nature and nurture. was George Washington a psychopath or a sadist? good people can do evil things and still ultimately be good people.

and one of my own high school teachers said some slaves stayed with their masters after being freed. and before you say they had Stockholm Syndrome, they'd have to meet specific circumstantial criteria and exhibit specific symptoms, there is more to it then just "staying with someone who did something bad to you". you can't prove every single one of them had the syndrome.

Oh I wouldn't even suggest Stockholm Syndrome is a thing.

You don't have to be a psychopath or a sadist to be evil. Your problem is viewing evil people as fundamentally different sub-species, with quintessential different minds and motives, rather than individuals who gave into selfishness, cruelty, or moral sloth more often than they stood up for what was right, doing the easy or expedient thing more than they did the hard and noble thing, etc.

but I still can't accept that because my moral compass would not allow me to do anything even slightly wrong unless it was for an objective greater good, so I can't imagine anyone else doing so either.

So wait you don't care about utilitarianism failings?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

the difference is that kids shows teach morals for the here and now, people in the past, with certain exceptions, didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

This sort of shit is just dishonest crappola. They knew enslaving other humans was wrong. They just didn't care. Look at how many hoops they had to jump through. The entire war was because they were afraid the north would abolish slavery. Why? Because it was fucking wrong. People had been writing anti-slavery tracts and fighting slavery since before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

People had every bit the moral autonomy they did today Mark Twain grew up in the South in the 1800s. He was anti-racist and feminist, fighting for black people and women to be considered equal. Did he know it was wrong? Fucking yes, obviously he did. There's a reason he's the greatest American author (Sorry Poe). Mark Twain was hardly alone? So how come slave owners and overseers, those who benefited and profited from the enslavement of other human beings, not have known it was wrong?

They didn't want to, that's why. They could have. They didn't want to. They chose to support rape, murder, beatings, torture, and a short life of brutal labor for other human beings. They could have done otherwise. They didn't.

Yes, that makes them evil.

I would agree with you but there is some serious cognitive dissidence going on for me, like a sources I've seen/read say George Washington told his slaves to be freed after he died and one was his best friend.

If he really cared about them, he would free them >>before<< he died. Freeing them after he dies isn't a good act, it's the act of somebody who knows better trying to soothe his conscience without actually giving up any of his worldly wealth.

As for the claims that a slave was his best friend, do we have any sources for that written by the man who could have been sold or murdered without consequence if George Washington didn't like how he acted?

Handsome is as handsome does.

I just still don't know. the founding fathers did really good things and I just can't fathom bad people doing such good things. again, your evil is as evil does is way to simplistic, it also has to do with nature and nurture. was George Washington a psychopath or a sadist? good people can do evil things and still ultimately be good people.

and one of my own high school teachers said some slaves stayed with their masters after being freed. and before you say they had Stockholm Syndrome, they'd have to meet specific circumstantial criteria and exhibit specific symptoms, there is more to it then just "staying with someone who did something bad to you". you can't prove every single one of them had the syndrome.

Oh I wouldn't even suggest Stockholm Syndrome is a thing.

You don't have to be a psychopath or a sadist to be evil. Your problem is viewing evil people as fundamentally different sub-species, with quintessential different minds and motives, rather than individuals who gave into selfishness, cruelty, or moral sloth more often than they stood up for what was right, doing the easy or expedient thing more than they did the hard and noble thing, etc.

but I still can't accept that because my moral compass would not allow me to do anything even slightly wrong unless it was for an objective greater good, so I can't imagine anyone else doing so either.

So wait you don't care about utilitarianism failings?

I don't know what you mean but I'm not sure what else I can say on this subject anyway.

[GreyICE]

but I still can't accept that because my moral compass would not allow me to do anything even slightly wrong unless it was for an objective greater good, so I can't imagine anyone else doing so either.

My dude. My dude you tried to sell me that it was okay to own slaves if it would be kind of inconvenient and a little risky to free them. It's okay to hold another human being in bondage because someone passed a law that said you couldn't free them in the South.

Do you think your moral compass just accidentally points towards what's convenient? No. You're an expert at rationalizing.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

but I still can't accept that because my moral compass would not allow me to do anything even slightly wrong unless it was for an objective greater good, so I can't imagine anyone else doing so either.

My dude. My dude you tried to sell me that it was okay to own slaves if it would be kind of inconvenient and a little risky to free them. It's okay to hold another human being in bondage because someone passed a law that said you couldn't free them in the South.

Do you think your moral compass just accidentally points towards what's convenient? No. You're an expert at rationalizing.

my point was that, regardless of the morality of slavery, I can't imagine individuals like the founding fathers being bad people because bad people cannot do good things like they did.

and I never said slavery was okay, I was always trying to just give meditating factors to people from the past, not trying to completely absolve them.

[Madner Kami]

Bad people can do good things. In fact, a lot of historically relevant bad people did bad things in order to do things that they considered good and which could be considered good in the grand scheme of things, obviously unless you are one of the casualties they caused.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

If you like choose a victim at all though then you're toast.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

Bad people can do good things. In fact, a lot of historically relevant bad people did bad things in order to do things that they considered good and which could be considered good in the grand scheme of things, obviously unless you are one of the casualties they caused.

the difference is that, say, Hitler, never did anything that was or would become, good for everyone like the Founding Fathers did.

again, I judge someone as evil not just by their actions but their nature as a person.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Don't you guys realize that you're just betting here? There's nothing informative about these qualifications.

[Madner Kami]

the difference is that, say, Hitler, never did anything that was or would become, good for everyone like the Founding Fathers did.

Ask the thousands of british soldiers who died fighting on behalf of the colonies, before the whole independence-thing happend. Go ask the native americans, what they think about the foundation of the US. Or Cuba. Haiti. Puerto Rico. The entire fucking latin Americas or what the Russians think about american soldiers marching on their ground during their little civil war in the early 20th century.