Remember how the Mainstream Media said they won't be coming for Jefferson and Washington Next?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

the difference is that, say, Hitler, never did anything that was or would become, good for everyone like the Founding Fathers did.

Ask the thousands of british soldiers who died fighting on behalf of the colonies, before the whole independence-thing happend. Go ask the native americans, what they think about the foundation of the US. Or Cuba. Haiti. Puerto Rico. The entire fucking latin Americas or what the Russians think about american soldiers marching on their ground during their little civil war in the early 20th century.

okay, that was stupid of me but still, I just can't see a bad person making a democracy.

[Madner Kami]

okay, that was stupid of me but still, I just can't see a bad person making a democracy.

You don't really know a lot about the French Revolution then? The Soviet Revolution? The Cuban Revolution? Have you read about the Slave Revolts and Revolution on Haiti? Oh boy do I have bad news for you...

[Dragon Ball Fan]

okay, that was stupid of me but still, I just can't see a bad person making a democracy.

You don't really know a lot about the French Revolution then? The Soviet Revolution? The Cuban Revolution? Have you read about the Slave Revolts and Revolution on Haiti? Oh boy do I have bad news for you...

well, those may have been bad but in general, people die in war, it's only really bad if it's civilians who die or stuff like that but it's just had the founding fathers presented to me as angels for so long and it's way to late to know for absolute certain what they were really like, for good or bad.

[Madner Kami]

They were people. People are neither inherently good nor bad. They all are grey. They all reacted to things happening based on things they learned in their life and their perceptions, just like you and me and they all did what they thought they had to do in order to make things "right" which they percieved as wrong.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

okay but that's kind of my point, there are some people who are actually malevolent, which the particular historical fugues I am for lack of a better word "defending" are not.

[Madner Kami]

Go and ask Ayn Rand if she considered herself evil. Ask Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Qin Shi Huang Di or the first human to use a stone on someone else's head, if they think they are evil or did what they did in order to achieve evil. They all have their reasons which they percieve as good and outside of those who are mentally ill, none of them will consider themselves as evil.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

Go and ask Ayn Rand if she considered herself evil. Ask Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Qin Shi Huang Di or the first human to use a stone on someone else's head, if they think they are evil or did what they did in order to achieve evil. They all have their reasons which they percieve as good and outside of those who are mentally ill, none of them will consider themselves as evil.

they are still evil because weather or not they called their actions evil, they didn't do them out of altruism, like Hitler hated the Jews, he was under no devolution it was good for them. there's a difference between thinking what you are doing is good for everyone and thinking what you are doing is good for just yourself.

[Madner Kami]

Ayn Rand is a complete selfish arsehole, no doubt about that, but the others mentioned? All of them had the greater good of at least one nation in mind. If your measurement for whether someone is good or bad is, whether their actions benefit all of mankind (=good) or only part of it (=bad), then boy do you live in a dark world...

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Ayn Rand is a complete selfish arsehole, no doubt about that, but the others mentioned? All of them had the greater good of at least one nation in mind. If your measurement for whether someone is good or bad is, whether their actions benefit all of mankind (=good) or only part of it (=bad), then boy do you live in a dark world...

At that point, you audit their moral calculus and/or compare it to their execution in manner. Ayn Rand's philosophy was shitzer.

In the case of founding fathers, the particular democracy they were structuring, running away from monarchies, was tremendously noble. In terms of "public good" with considerations, it's quite an achievement to develop an impartial ruling class representative of the public. I carry the sentiment over to France a bit as well.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Now, not to say that no social development is expected... But if it was practically anarchy and then they suddenly passed a ruling from the get-go about no slaves allowed, I imagine it might not go over well with the public. Only a speculation mind you, I'm sure there's people that have nuanced accounts that can talk about that, but I think it serves as an obstacle of some sort at least for the abolition movement.