The Star Wars Sequels Erased?

[Nealithi]

The way I looked at with Holdo withholding information from Poe.

1. Holdo was withholding information from Poe because she is of higher rank and he is just a pilot. A hot headed one at that. The whole thing could have been written a bit differently I think to reflect that if it is true.

2. The Feminist Agenda. It's a play on man not trusting a woman to lead. That a woman couldn't be competent to lead without a man. So they shoot it down. Man is wrong and the woman was right all along. This is the more simplistic way of explaining it for me. I didn't want to truly dive into the SJW aspects others have done about this.

3. Subverting Expectations. Poe is an established character. Holdo isn't. Poe is a hot headed but skilled pilot. It plays out a bit like how you would expect. Poe would end up being right in the end and all is forgiven. Instead, Poe is shot down and turned out he was wrong the entire time.

4. Or the whole thing was written with little thought about character motivations and how the movie plays out. Like the whole thing plays out like a filler scene.

Honestly, I think it's a combination of the first three with the last being a consequence of it all.

That's just me.

Haven't thought about how I would do the whole thing without changing it. Then again I hate the so called 'Holdo Maneuver'. So maybe the whole thing needs to be changed.

Maybe instead, the fleet is stuck due to an Interdictor ship being present. And just skipping the whole mutiny scene while they are being chased to the planet. Make it short.

I think the problem is that Poe being demoted and less trusted was the infamous bomber scene. It set him up as reckless and willing to spend lives. The trouble is the bombers themselves were ridiculous. They were slow by 2001 standards. Let alone something in Star Wars. Because the bomber sequence was off putting the demotion felt a bit weak. And Holdo came off as condescending and arrogant instead of putting Poe in his place for his screw up. Specifically, note that an angry officer scowls. Even Janeway will look pissed when dressing down another officer. Holdo looked amused to be taking him down a peg.

[clearspira]

The way I looked at with Holdo withholding information from Poe.

1. Holdo was withholding information from Poe because she is of higher rank and he is just a pilot. A hot headed one at that. The whole thing could have been written a bit differently I think to reflect that if it is true.

2. The Feminist Agenda. It's a play on man not trusting a woman to lead. That a woman couldn't be competent to lead without a man. So they shoot it down. Man is wrong and the woman was right all along. This is the more simplistic way of explaining it for me. I didn't want to truly dive into the SJW aspects others have done about this.

3. Subverting Expectations. Poe is an established character. Holdo isn't. Poe is a hot headed but skilled pilot. It plays out a bit like how you would expect. Poe would end up being right in the end and all is forgiven. Instead, Poe is shot down and turned out he was wrong the entire time.

4. Or the whole thing was written with little thought about character motivations and how the movie plays out. Like the whole thing plays out like a filler scene.

Honestly, I think it's a combination of the first three with the last being a consequence of it all.

That's just me.

Haven't thought about how I would do the whole thing without changing it. Then again I hate the so called 'Holdo Maneuver'. So maybe the whole thing needs to be changed.

Maybe instead, the fleet is stuck due to an Interdictor ship being present. And just skipping the whole mutiny scene while they are being chased to the planet. Make it short.

I think the problem is that Poe being demoted and less trusted was the infamous bomber scene. It set him up as reckless and willing to spend lives. The trouble is the bombers themselves were ridiculous. They were slow by 2001 standards. Let alone something in Star Wars. Because the bomber sequence was off putting the demotion felt a bit weak. And Holdo came off as condescending and arrogant instead of putting Poe in his place for his screw up. Specifically, note that an angry officer scowls. Even Janeway will look pissed when dressing down another officer. Holdo looked amused to be taking him down a peg.

Yep, and all of this is compounded by the fact that the battle against Death Star 3 happened THE DAY BEFORE. This plot might have worked 24 hrs ago. Luke and Han got a medal when they did it, Poe got accused of being untrustworthy?

[TGLS]

I honestly get the impression that Johnson was albatrossed by the previous movie, and tried to cut it out as much as possible. Maybe the "must happen shortly after previous" thing came down from on high? Makes little sense though, Lucas had a cottage industry of filling in what happened between his movies.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

The way I looked at with Holdo withholding information from Poe.

1. Holdo was withholding information from Poe because she is of higher rank and he is just a pilot. A hot headed one at that. The whole thing could have been written a bit differently I think to reflect that if it is true.

And how would you've written it? Now - here - is your chance to show, that you can do that.

2. The Feminist Agenda. It's a play on man not trusting a woman to lead. That a woman couldn't be competent to lead without a man. So they shoot it down. Man is wrong and the woman was right all along. This is the more simplistic way of explaining it for me. I didn't want to truly dive into the SJW aspects others have done about this.

Yeah - that's kinda bullshit.
If Holdo would've been a man, too, the whole scenario wouldn't have played different.
Poe is a hothead, Holdo is still in command and both don't know, if they could trust each other.

3. Subverting Expectations. Poe is an established character. Holdo isn't. Poe is a hot headed but skilled pilot. It plays out a bit like how you would expect. Poe would end up being right in the end and all is forgiven. Instead, Poe is shot down and turned out he was wrong the entire time.

There is nothing wrong with a little subversion of expectation.

I think the problem is that Poe being demoted and less trusted was the infamous bomber scene. It set him up as reckless and willing to spend lives. The trouble is the bombers themselves were ridiculous. They were slow by 2001 standards. Let alone something in Star Wars. Because the bomber sequence was off putting the demotion felt a bit weak. And Holdo came off as condescending and arrogant instead of putting Poe in his place for his screw up. Specifically, note that an angry officer scowls. Even Janeway will look pissed when dressing down another officer. Holdo looked amused to be taking him down a peg.

Actually, they set him up as hot-headed and as someone, who does, what he believes, is right. Not "willing to spend lives" - plus: The rest of the Bomber-Fleet could've unanimously decided to say "no" , if that would've been an order. Remember? "This is not a military, this is the resistance", as Clearspira put it.

What put you off concerning the bomber sequence? They were "slow"? Well, they had bombs on board, what do you expect? High-speed chases, which might've destabilized the bombs?

"Holdo came of as condescending and arrogant"? Good - exactly how she should've come across. Remember: there is a "we potentially have a traitor in our midst"-plot going on. So of course the new person is mistrusted.

Yep, and all of this is compounded by the fact that the battle against Death Star 3 happened THE DAY BEFORE. This plot might have worked 24 hrs ago. Luke and Han got a medal when they did it, Poe got accused of being untrustworthy?

Poe did a hotheaded thing and that hurt the rebellion. Sure, the Bomb-Squad could've decided to say "no", so they were probably on board with it, but I'm sure that "getting killed" was not their plan. So - of course: Demotion it is.

[Makeshift Python]

For me nothing really matters outside of the actual episode films 1-9. Everything else is just a side story.

Many of those side stories, as you call them, far surpass the OT in grandeur and story craft.

If you think so, cool for you. I don't have time to plow through all those TV shows, comics, video games, novels, Fortnite easter eggs, etc. Star Wars remains strictly a cinematic medium for me.

I can't say I ever cared about the prospect of seeing the "holy trinity" reunited like in so many of those fan made photoshopped pics with them and Lando in the Falcon. I actually admire that the ST avoided that, as if to say their time had passed after the OT and from then on they served more as legacy characters rather than focal characters (which was more for Rey, Finn, and Poe). I actually wish they had written out Leia after Carrie's death, but I understand it's kinda hard to just do that when they had already set up Ben's redemption with her being a key part of it. It's unfortunate, but oh well.

They had set up Ben's redemption by the end of TLJ? No they hadn't. I'm sorry, but that just is not true.

TLJ ends with Kylo Ren taking control of the First Order and becoming the new Snoke after trying to kill his former master in a literally spitting rage. And with the hindsight of TROS, he didn't try to take the First Order in any new direction, he is completely in charge of it to the point of killing his advisors for even mild descent.

"Just not true"? You completely overlook that Kylo Ren couldn't even bring himself to kill his mother when the opportunity presented itself. That was a clear indication that in spite of all his hard pushes towards the dark side, and wanting to surpass his grandfather, that there was still something within him that could pull him back into the light and that was his mother. In hindsight, that really makes sense why Kylo Ren would be so aggressive in matters like, as you mention, "killing his advisors for even mild descent". He KNOWS there's pull to the light and is desperately doing anything he can to reject it and make himself feel he's truly embraced the dark side.

I actually do like the concept of how he's pulled back into the light. Leia projecting herself, using her remaining lightforce that results in her death, severely impacts Ben as by design. Combine that with Rey healing him with his life force, and finally a chat with his dad's spirit, and he's no longer afraid of letting the light take him. It would have been more profound if Fisher were alive and was the one talking to Ben rather than Ford, but oh well.

I do think it's a shame Ben died, because I can imagine an alternate ending where in the end he ultimately decides to go off into a long journey of atonement, something that can never be achieved but he does it anyway. More like a Clint Eastwood drifter, going from location to location, seeing local injustices and tries to help out of compassion. "Why are you helping us?" "You remind me of a scavenger I once knew." I would call it THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE SOLO.

Oh well.

[Nealithi]

I think the problem is that Poe being demoted and less trusted was the infamous bomber scene. It set him up as reckless and willing to spend lives. The trouble is the bombers themselves were ridiculous. They were slow by 2001 standards. Let alone something in Star Wars. Because the bomber sequence was off putting the demotion felt a bit weak. And Holdo came off as condescending and arrogant instead of putting Poe in his place for his screw up. Specifically, note that an angry officer scowls. Even Janeway will look pissed when dressing down another officer. Holdo looked amused to be taking him down a peg.

Actually, they set him up as hot-headed and as someone, who does, what he believes, is right. Not "willing to spend lives" - plus: The rest of the Bomber-Fleet could've unanimously decided to say "no" , if that would've been an order. Remember? "This is not a military, this is the resistance", as Clearspira put it.

What put you off concerning the bomber sequence? They were "slow"? Well, they had bombs on board, what do you expect? High-speed chases, which might've destabilized the bombs?

"Holdo came of as condescending and arrogant"? Good - exactly how she should've come across. Remember: there is a "we potentially have a traitor in our midst"-plot going on. So of course the new person is mistrusted.

Destabilized the bombs? Those things were not flying at relative 'bomber' speeds. They were moving at 'zepplin' speeds compared to the fighters. The last bomber was incapable of getting out of the way of is own bomb blast. It was still moving at the same speed it had previously. If the bombs dropping should have sped it up then it should have been further away. Nope it was still practically hovering.
The excuse that they took the effect from WW2 bombers is an insult to the bombers of WW2.
The B-17 flew near 287mph. The counter Me 109 was 349mph.
Faster than a bomber but not jet versus a balloon in speed. Bombers also bristled with guns and accounted for more Axis fighters shot down than the escort and interceptor planes did for the war.
The venerable Y-wing figher/Bomber actually could have flown significantly faster. A freighter like the Falcon could have flown significantly faster. There are so many craft that could have done that mission and not gotten destroyed that it blows the mind that those bombers were used at all.

Did high command order the bombers back? No they ordered Poe to turn the bombers back. Like he was the only one who could communicate with them. How does that work for such a mission?

And how is condescending and arrogant how she is supposed to come across? No one knew her. She put a sizable percentage of her own people into thinking SHE was the enemy and not to be trusted. Other wise Poe's mutiny would have been alone with a single blaster. Instead he got a number of people on his side. Because she did not come across as a leader. Not came across as a bad leader. Did not come as a leader at all.
The only time I saw Holdo look like someone fit for command was when the shuttles came under fire. The look first of horror and then determination that she would do something, anything to save her people. I may hate the 'Holdo Manuever'. But hats off that took guts.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

You were supposed to dislike Holdo. That was the whole reason, she was written that way: uhhh, new Character, possible traitor, we don't know, if we could trust her, that whole thing.

[clearspira]

You were supposed to dislike Holdo. That was the whole reason, she was written that way: uhhh, new Character, possible traitor, we don't know, if we could trust her, that whole thing.

Nope. We the viewer are supposed to agree with Holdo - its bad writing on Rian and Kathy's part that we don't. Why do you think she gets The Triumphant Sacrifice?

[Makeshift Python]

You were supposed to dislike Holdo. That was the whole reason, she was written that way: uhhh, new Character, possible traitor, we don't know, if we could trust her, that whole thing.

Correct. I've read fan suggestions that it should have been Ackbar in the role of Holdo, but that wouldn't have worked at all because we already have a familiarity with him in ROTJ, so he's established on screen as a hero. Holdo being an unknown quantity brings more conflict. You don't know for sure if Holdo really is doing things in everyone's best interest until Leia wakes up from her coma and sets shit straight.

[Captain Crimson]

For me nothing really matters outside of the actual episode films 1-9. Everything else is just a side story.

Many of those side stories, as you call them, far surpass the OT in grandeur and story craft.

If you think so, cool for you. I don't have time to plow through all those TV shows, comics, video games, novels, Fortnite easter eggs, etc. Star Wars remains strictly a cinematic medium for me.

Which is absolutely valid, don't think otherwise. But it is still appalling if one were to do a bit of digging, research into the source material they say does not exist, it is just a well of ideas, and thus just how much they have... I hate to say plagiarized from the EU, but yeah, if it's so unoriginal and it's just a retread of older ground, watered down, to be brought to casuals and movie crowds worldwide, what else could you call it? While I liked many of the films, I found them on par with the PT. I liked them, I will never defend them. For different reasons.

I would prefer if they were gonna reboot and just kick so many older fans in the junk to do something truly unique. Ground-breaking and pioneering. But they're not even doing that. They need certain checklists they have to hit. And for all his flaws, give Mr. Lucas this. He never cared about that.