ChrisTheEnby wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:54 pmIn The Outcast on TNG they have Riker have a relationship with a nonbinary-coded alien.... but they made sure said alien passes as a cis woman so it wasn't gay. iirc they didn't ever refer to said alien with nonbinary pronouns.....
Reading the wiki, I'm under the impression that the lexicon what have you wasn't very developed around the time of that episode.
Rejoined was SO CLOSE to being great, but they really played up the bigotry/"taboo" angle to an uncomfortable degree, like you can't write about queer people being queer openly and happuily, we always need to be used as a prop for tensin.... is it any surprise it ended how it did....
especially when Discovery would go on to give us a canon gay couple......... only to immediately engage in loathsome Bury Your Gays shit.
How do you feel about Trek though introducing it as an issue?
I do understand what you mean about not having a running character of such condition though.
I haven't read everything that everyone that worked on this episode has said, but even if they say otherwise, I doubt that this episode was supposed to be a homosexual allegory, mostly because of the way that 80's and 90's era Trek was terrified of anything gay that didn't happen in the mirror universe. If the attraction was between the hosts, that would be one thing, but it's actually between the symbiotes, and I don't think it was ever established that they even had gender. Calling it gay just because of the kiss at the end (which is what most people seem to remember) seems kind of shallow to me.
But then, that's just my opinion.
No man is happier than the one that has made himself miserable in order to feel as though he is in control. - Dr. John Noel
The kiss was a BIG deal at the time. This was, as Chuck noted, before Ellen came out (and then proceeded to get her show cancelled for it) before Roseanne started adding a ton of gay characters into her show. Babylon 5 had to bury the Talia/Ivonova romance so deep it was incredibly easy to miss that they hooked up at all. At the same time Xena wasn't allowed to make the leads gay despite being REALLY obvious, and Buffy had to make Willow gay very under the radar initially and sneak the "gay" stuff into episodes that had other much more objectionable content to get past the censors.
It's a process. Gay stuff was just... treated differently a mere 25 years ago. Heck, they only got equal rights like marriage just recently and thats still hated on by bigots.
Star Trek did what it was allowed to do, and pushed where it could, used a broad analogy instead of covering the actual topic... but there were limits. Especially when the head producer had issues with it.
Just recently rewatched this one and I agree with the 6 out of 10 raring. It's fairly predictable, but well executed.
Compared with pretty much every other Star Trek episode that dealt with same-sex or gender-queer issues at this time, the relationship actually felt believe what the tension building natural thanks to strong performances. They didn't have to dance around the issue, but they didn't seem to orate on it either.
So many episodes in the 90s built up to a one time same-sex kiss between two actresses without out long term relationships that it became something of a joke, as one headline said "It's Sweeps Week Ladies. Time too Pucker Up." But while those was consider build up to the kiss it didn't feel like the central focus as the danger the both wanted to avoid contrasting with the feeling they couldn't ignore felt real. It didn't just come off like fan service.
I understand why more us would like to see these relationship ended happily, Chuck was quite right that few romances in Star Trek ever seem to last for more than one episode. Even with out the no gays ruling from above, we probably couldn't get a guest star to sign on as regular and Terry wasn't leaving this season. But while the ending was kind of inevitable it wasn't forced into a shook moment. Compared to say Kirk's Indian bride in TOS. The taboo and the consequences are clearly unfair, but it doesn't with one them dying horrible or becoming possessive. Ultimately it's only different outlooks that prevent them from taking that plunge. In other words, they felt like an other couple.
It's also kind of intriguing that never one of them seem to know how much their feeling for each other are new or old. Is it who Khan used to be that draws Dax to her or that mutual roles as scientists give them something in common they didn't have before. They're even critical about the actions of there former selves.
"Well, Torias used to be insensitive at times. But you have to admit, Nilani did do her share of overreacting."
"That's because you were a pilot and it made me nervous. Made her nervous. Torias being a pilot made Nilani nervous. I've never had quite this much trouble sorting out my feelings from those of a past host."
"I know what you mean."
"Probably another good reason why we're not supposed to spend much time together. We'd probably just get lost in the past."
Despite the sad end, there is a unique humor about their situation that could be interesting to play further in another series.
RobbyB1982 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:07 pm
The kiss was a BIG deal at the time. This was, as Chuck noted, before Ellen came out (and then proceeded to get her show cancelled for it) before Roseanne started adding a ton of gay characters into her show. Babylon 5 had to bury the Talia/Ivonova romance so deep it was incredibly easy to miss that they hooked up at all. At the same time Xena wasn't allowed to make the leads gay despite being REALLY obvious, and Buffy had to make Willow gay very under the radar initially and sneak the "gay" stuff into episodes that had other much more objectionable content to get past the censors.
It's a process. Gay stuff was just... treated differently a mere 25 years ago. Heck, they only got equal rights like marriage just recently and thats still hated on by bigots.
Star Trek did what it was allowed to do, and pushed where it could, used a broad analogy instead of covering the actual topic... but there were limits. Especially when the head producer had issues with it.
Indeed.
It wasn't without controversy either. According to the Deep Space Nine Companion at least one syndicated southern station edited the kiss out. Co-writer René Echevarria's mother told him that it should have come with a parental guidance warning before airing. Several staff members had to take turns on the phones for the sheer numbers of calls. The calls were mostly negative, though the incoming letters were mostly positive.
Here's something amusing. Supposedly one assistant listen to one viewer rant about kids seeing the kiss and than after the finished ranting asked if they would have been fine kids seeing say, Jazdia taking out a phaser and shooter Leoara. When they answered in affirmative, the assistance respond was, "you should reconsider who's messing up your kids."
I really like the concept of the Trill.
They are the sort of Science Fiction idea that allows for a lot of allegory to be put into a story without having to actually spell out real world issues (trans rights and gay rights being at the top of the list).
It is the best way to write metaphors.
Also they have a bit of reincarnation stirred into them, which is a cool way to pull in a fantasy element into a sci-fi element.
My Blog: http://rocketboy1313.blogspot.com/
My Twitter: https://twitter.com/Rocketboy1313
My Tumblr: https://www.tumblr.com/blog/rocketboy1313
My Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/13rocketboy13
While it was more timely when it was made to deal with a homosexual allegory, I think the story probably would have been more timeless with the original idea of Dax's and Khan's hosts having the opposite genders they had when the two had a relationship together. Then again, the fact that Dax used to have a male host leading to wacky hijinx (Klingon blood oath, etc) was a reoccurring them and Jadzia was always a tomboy so it would also might also make the episode less unique within the show.
Gendered hosts with genderless symbiotes is probably something that would be explored more if DS9 were made today than in the 90s.
I'm reminded of how some people pointed out (especially in retrospect, because of the Wachowskis) the Matrix trilogy missed the opportunities to explore the idea of someone who was one gender in the simulation but the other gender in the real world. Though if Matrix 4 actually comes to fruition I suspect that will finally be addressed.
Spock was a socialist: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
Something In ever got was why the Trill seemed so hellbent on getting a symbiote. It, to me, sounds kinda horrifying and barely better then a Go'uld from Stargate. If the host is weak or untrained their personality is completely dominated, in the initial appearance of the Trill the host seemed almost an afterthought and Riker was completely overtaken by the parasite. Even if you are strong or trained enough you in some ways die, your personality, your very memories are overtaken by a creature with centuries of experience. Its not you anymore, its similar to you but heavily altered. That doesn't sound like a good trade for all the experience, to lose yourself.
My guess is why there was a rule against previous relations was to help protect the current host. Getting in a relationship, in the life, of a previous host might dredge up alot of that old host and overshadow the current one.
