DS9 - Tribunal

[GreyICE]

Yes. Note: didn't force her out, but told her to get out. That's fine. If she her values don't match American values, she should go somewhere else instead of expecting America to change.

A member of the Seattle City Council spoke of a need to overthrow the "racist, sexist, violent, utterly bankrupt system of capitalism." Capitalism has worked far better than anything else that's been tried on a large scale. China and Cuba have both returned to capitalism.

She's free to go to a socialist country, and live there. That way, everybody's happy! Well, if there's a capitalism-free country other than North Korea.

Of course we still haven't established how an "American who has these values" makes them anything other than "American values". Really, this is what I mean about dangerous fascist rhetoric. Not only is it clear that you're okay with the idea of an American being considered to "not have American values", you're on board with it.

And I think this effectively demonstrates what I mean about a large part of the America using fascist rhetoric. There's this true belief that Americans should leave America because they're not "American." Born here, raised here, it doesn't matter to them, because their targets don't subscribe to their definition of "America" - The State as a spiritual cause.

Thank you for effectively demonstrating how prevalent this rhetoric is in the right-wing, and how widely accepted and mainstream it is.

[Darth Wedgius]

Yes. Note: didn't force her out, but told her to get out. That's fine. If she her values don't match American values, she should go somewhere else instead of expecting America to change.

A member of the Seattle City Council spoke of a need to overthrow the "racist, sexist, violent, utterly bankrupt system of capitalism." Capitalism has worked far better than anything else that's been tried on a large scale. China and Cuba have both returned to capitalism.

She's free to go to a socialist country, and live there. That way, everybody's happy! Well, if there's a capitalism-free country other than North Korea.

Of course we still haven't established how an "American who has these values" makes them anything other than "American values". Really, this is what I mean about dangerous fascist rhetoric. Not only is it clear that you're okay with the idea of an American being considered to "not have American values", you're on board with it.

And I think this effectively demonstrates what I mean about a large part of the America using fascist rhetoric. There's this true belief that Americans should leave America because they're not "American." Born here, raised here, it doesn't matter to them, because their targets don't subscribe to their definition of "America" - The State as a spiritual cause.

Thank you for effectively demonstrating how prevalent this rhetoric is in the right-wing, and how widely accepted and mainstream it is.

That's not anywhere near worship of a state. That's shared values making a people. The state is a way of ruling a people, but the state is not the people. People help shape the state, and the shape helps shape the people, but it's never a case of a square peg and a square hole.

And I didn't say that she isn't American. That's a straw man argument (you might want to look that up; people on the left frequently misunderstand that even after it has been explained to them repeatedly). She has American citizenship, so she has all the pertaining rights and responsibilities I have (except for those that discriminate against men).

Nor do I want her exiled because her values are so different than most of the country's. If she wants to stop being part of the free market, that's fine. People have established communes that have worked pretty well... for a generation.

But when she expects the rest of us to give up the system that has worked far better than any other, she should go somewhere else and try it. Live for a while in any one of the socialist success stories. If she can fine one. Or go for barter, if she prefers.

We have a country that people risk death to get into. I'm not convinced that's just geography.

[GreyICE]

That's not anywhere near worship of a state. That's shared values making a people. The state is a way of ruling a people, but the state is not the people. People help shape the state, and the shape helps shape the people, but it's never a case of a square peg and a square hole.

And I didn't say that she isn't American. That's a straw man argument (you might want to look that up; people on the left frequently misunderstand that even after it has been explained to them repeatedly). She has American citizenship, so she has all the pertaining rights and responsibilities I have (except for those that discriminate against men).

Nor do I want her exiled because her values are so different than most of the country's. If she wants to stop being part of the free market, that's fine. People have established communes that have worked pretty well... for a generation.

But when she expects the rest of us to give up the system that has worked far better than any other, she should go somewhere else and try it. Live for a while in any one of the socialist success stories. If she can fine one. Or go for barter, if she prefers.

We have a country that people risk death to get into. I'm not convinced that's just geography.

As I said, this is the typical attitude.



And that's an unfortunate thing. Fascist language and fascist thinking has been completely integrated into many pieces of the Republican party in the United States, and the traditional conservatives have become a shrinking minority.

You think it's a good thing. Okay. That too is part of the problem.

[Sir Ian Treloar]

Sorry, Chuck, but your premise is incorrect. It's not the case that if you're a patriot you must support the Patriot Act & if you're a progressive you must support the Green New Deal. These are not left or right. Both of these serve the interests of the globalists and both work against the US Constitution & the freedom of the individual protected in it.

[Darth Wedgius]

That's not anywhere near worship of a state. That's shared values making a people. The state is a way of ruling a people, but the state is not the people. People help shape the state, and the shape helps shape the people, but it's never a case of a square peg and a square hole.

And I didn't say that she isn't American. That's a straw man argument (you might want to look that up; people on the left frequently misunderstand that even after it has been explained to them repeatedly). She has American citizenship, so she has all the pertaining rights and responsibilities I have (except for those that discriminate against men).

Nor do I want her exiled because her values are so different than most of the country's. If she wants to stop being part of the free market, that's fine. People have established communes that have worked pretty well... for a generation.

But when she expects the rest of us to give up the system that has worked far better than any other, she should go somewhere else and try it. Live for a while in any one of the socialist success stories. If she can fine one. Or go for barter, if she prefers.

We have a country that people risk death to get into. I'm not convinced that's just geography.

As I said, this is the typical attitude.



And that's an unfortunate thing. Fascist language and fascist thinking has been completely integrated into many pieces of the Republican party in the United States, and the traditional conservatives have become a shrinking minority.

You think it's a good thing. Okay. That too is part of the problem.

So, in short, fascism is the idea that there is a national character or set of values, and nothing to do with authoritarianism or making the individual important only as a servant of the state? People risk death to come to America because of its national boundaries? Totalitarianism has nothing to do with prison sentences or executions and everything to do with people saying that those who want to change America should find some place that better fits them?

Am I wrong in any of those interpretations of what you said?

[GreyICE]

So, in short, fascism is the idea that there is a national character or set of values, and nothing to do with authoritarianism or making the individual important only as a servant of the state?

No, I wrote you out a detailed description of fascism. Go read it. That was the "in short" of it, because entire books have been written about it, and I condensed it down to what, 10 or 15 paragraphs specifically related to the root philosophy of fascism, and how the fascist worldview is created? I think I did a pretty good job. I'm not discussing a lot of specific policies, but again, books. Go read one.

What you've created here isn't an "in short", it's a strawman. I'm not interested in you creating yet another strawman and then trying to argue against it. I wrote it in plain English, with as much as an attempt as possible to keep it readable, comprehensible, clear, and concise. If you can't understand what I wrote, that's really not my problem.

(Also Authoritarianism is not the foundation of a political philosophy, it's a conclusion of the philosophy. The philosophy attempts to justify why a single man or a small number should be granted vast control over people's lives. The fact you can't even distinguish a premise from a conclusion is just fucking sad)

[Darth Wedgius]

So, in short, fascism is the idea that there is a national character or set of values, and nothing to do with authoritarianism or making the individual important only as a servant of the state?

No, I wrote you out a detailed description of fascism. Go read it. That was the "in short" of it, because entire books have been written about it, and I condensed it down to what, 10 or 15 paragraphs specifically related to the root philosophy of fascism, and how the fascist worldview is created? I think I did a pretty good job. I'm not discussing a lot of specific policies, but again, books. Go read one.

What you've created here isn't an "in short", it's a strawman. I'm not interested in you creating yet another strawman and then trying to argue against it. I wrote it in plain English, with as much as an attempt as possible to keep it readable, comprehensible, clear, and concise. If you can't understand what I wrote, that's really not my problem.

(Also Authoritarianism is not the foundation of a political philosophy, it's a conclusion of the philosophy. The philosophy attempts to justify why a single man or a small number should be granted vast control over people's lives. The fact you can't even distinguish a premise from a conclusion is just fucking sad)

Actually, you gave me characteristics of fascism, and you said that Mussolini's terms should be taken as gospel for it but ignored what Mussolini said about the individual existing to serve the state.

You also seem to deny anything of a national character can exist, and you call that fascist. You defined America in terms of geography, and you seemed to me to insist that geography was the only definition.

Mussolini wanted the individual to exist to serve the state. Mussolini's fascist regime also ruthlessly applied censorship. And I never said that authoritarianism is a foundation of any political phiolosphy, did I? Strawman alert!

But authoritarianism is part of fascism, at least for every definition I've read. You don't seem to care about it as far as fascism (or your idea of fascism, anyway) goes, if you care about it at all.

So all those Antifa types might not even be fighting what most people see as fascism. Maybe they're fighting the idea of America as anything other than geography. If so, that makes them seem a little less crazy, and explains their authoritarian tendencies.

[GreyICE]

So all those Antifa types might not even be fighting what most people see as fascism. Maybe they're fighting the idea of America as anything other than geography. If so, that makes them seem a little less crazy, and explains their authoritarian tendencies.

Strawman time!

You think I'm going to keep responding to you when you keep pulling this garbage where you lie about what other people think and then argue against that. I'm not. I'm going to make fun of you until you behave like a sane human being.

(you'll also note that I said America was two things. You might want to go find the second)

[Thebestoftherest]

So all those Antifa types might not even be fighting what most people see as fascism. Maybe they're fighting the idea of America as anything other than geography. If so, that makes them seem a little less crazy, and explains their authoritarian tendencies.

Strawman time!

You think I'm going to keep responding to you when you keep pulling this garbage where you lie about what other people think and then argue against that. I'm not. I'm going to make fun of you until you behave like a sane human being.

(you'll also note that I said America was two things. You might want to go find the second)

Build that straw man build him good.

[Darth Wedgius]

So all those Antifa types might not even be fighting what most people see as fascism. Maybe they're fighting the idea of America as anything other than geography. If so, that makes them seem a little less crazy, and explains their authoritarian tendencies.

Strawman time!

You think I'm going to keep responding to you when you keep pulling this garbage where you lie about what other people think and then argue against that. I'm not. I'm going to make fun of you until you behave like a sane human being.

(you'll also note that I said America was two things. You might want to go find the second)

Also from GreyICE:

The United States of America is a land mass, 3.8 million square miles in size. It has many forests, mountains, plains, beaches, deserts, every type of geography you can imagine. You know what it does not have, in all of its 3.8 million square miles? Morality.

The United States is an arbitrary geographical area carved out of a larger continent. It has no morality whatsoever. It cannot. It is inanimate. Inanimate objects simply exist. They are. A sofa has no morality, a lawn chair is not a moral tutor, and neither is some piece of geography.

To assign it some abstract morality and then hold other people to it is the delusion of the fascist mind.

GreyICE, has it ever occurred to you that if you have to be dishonest to "win" an argument, maybe you're, oh, I dunno, wrong?