Picard - Maps and Legends

[MightyDavidson]

Nope, as I said before. The only logical response when your enemy is in trouble is to kick him in the balls and then either break his legs or expose his neck.

Morals and principles when it comes to dealing with an expansionist empire gets you invaded.

That's the sort of thing that keeps hatreds going for centuries past their sell-by date.

So just to be clear: you think that kindness will stop an empire from invading you. That is your position?

*Pssst* Look up how often the Native Americans helped out the white settlers in the early days and see where that got them.

I smell a certain amount of naivety in this forum regarding the nature of how expansionist, authoritarian governments work - which sadly really does explain how the president of China went from being pulled around in a golden carriage through London into ''He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named'' in the span of David Cameron to Boris Johnson but I digress.
FYI: Pulling the thorn out of the giant's foot may or may not net you a best friend; but there will always be a hundred more giants waiting behind him who still hate you. They will still covet your lands, hate your god, hate your culture, hate your skin colour, hate the fact that your women or gays have rights etc. and one day they will put themselves back into a position of influence.

Well, there are always two options - be nice, but vigilant - or be a complete douchecanoe.
Kicking my enemy while he's down - that might be the douchecanoey thing to do. In especially, if we're not in times of war.

The last battle with the romulans ended with them helping the Enterprise against Shinzon - which, I think, makes them allies to us. So, if your allies have problems, for example a big Supernova happening, you frakking go to help them! That's the right thing to do. And even if they'd not be Starfleets allies, you still help them.

Not to mention the fact that the Romulans aided the Federation against the Dominion.

[Link8909]

Nope, as I said before. The only logical response when your enemy is in trouble is to kick him in the balls and then either break his legs or expose his neck.

Morals and principles when it comes to dealing with an expansionist empire gets you invaded.

That's the sort of thing that keeps hatreds going for centuries past their sell-by date.

So just to be clear: you think that kindness will stop an empire from invading you. That is your position?

*Pssst* Look up how often the Native Americans helped out the white settlers in the early days and see where that got them.

I smell a certain amount of naivety in this forum regarding the nature of how expansionist, authoritarian governments work - which sadly really does explain how the president of China went from being pulled around in a golden carriage through London into ''He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named'' in the span of David Cameron to Boris Johnson but I digress.
FYI: Pulling the thorn out of the giant's foot may or may not net you a best friend; but there will always be a hundred more giants waiting behind him who still hate you. They will still covet your lands, hate your god, hate your culture, hate your skin colour, hate the fact that your women or gays have rights etc. and one day they will put themselves back into a position of influence.

Well, there are always two options - be nice, but vigilant - or be a complete douchecanoe.
Kicking my enemy while he's down - that might be the douchecanoey thing to do. In especially, if we're not in times of war.

The last battle with the romulans ended with them helping the Enterprise against Shinzon - which, I think, makes them allies to us. So, if your allies have problems, for example a big Supernova happening, you frakking go to help them! That's the right thing to do. And even if they'd not be Starfleets allies, you still help them.

Not to mention the fact that the Romulans aided the Federation against the Dominion.

This is why I always say this is complicated, and also why I’m happy that the creators keep that Romulus was destroyed and are exploring the repercussions of it, on the one hand I understand why whole worlds were against helping the Romulan Star Empire, the conflict between them and the Federation has been around since before there was a Federation, and nearly every time the Romulans have always been aggressive and show no interest in peace, times like during the Dominion War and Shinzon’s insurrection when they did fight alongside Starfleet was in self-interest, the Romulan Star Empire have been willing to sacrifice their own people if they speck against government policy like in “The Defector” and "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", and even when Starfleet has shown Romulans kindness and trust, their response was to betray that trust like in “The Next Phase”, in short as far as most people are concerned, the Romulans can’t be trusted.

However on the other hand and for me personally I would still help the Romulan Star Empire regardless of the history between them and the Federation, and this is not me being naïve either, as I said there are many reasons not to trust the Romulans, but I would still help because it’s the morally right thing to do, showing kindness to an enemy may even end the cycle of violence and mistrust, maybe not when you do it or even years later, but if you do, you show that you can be better.

[Sir Will]

I like Picard overall. It has plenty of flaws, and I hope things are ironed out a bit in the second season, but it was enjoyable overall.

I think episodes 1-3 could have been condensed into 2 episodes. It starts to drag a tad in episodes 2 and 3.

Clancy gets too much hate. Yeah she's angry but it's not entirely without reason and she may have history with Picard that makes it more personal. And she doesn't ignore his concerns. She can't just give him a ship but she does follow up with Starfleet Security. And later we will see her come through again. While I think sometimes they seem to put profanity in awkwardly just because they can (that scene he showed with Tilly was cringe to me, but I admit I didn't watch the episode itself), I didn't mind it here. It seemed kinda realistic if they do have some personal history.

As for helping the Romulans, on a macro level it is a complicated thing. Obviously the moral thing to do was to help. But the world is not so simple and those in charge have many things to weigh. And our own self interest always creeps in.

Yes, they helped against the Dominion. But they had to be tricked into that. They did it for 100% selfish reasons. And both before and after they've tried to destroy the Federation. Shinzon did not act alone. He had the backing of many military leaders, who were annoyed it was taking so long for him to follow through.

[Sir Will]

Nope, as I said before. The only logical response when your enemy is in trouble is to kick him in the balls and then either break his legs or expose his neck.

Morals and principles when it comes to dealing with an expansionist empire gets you invaded.

That's the sort of thing that keeps hatreds going for centuries past their sell-by date.

So just to be clear: you think that kindness will stop an empire from invading you. That is your position?

*Pssst* Look up how often the Native Americans helped out the white settlers in the early days and see where that got them.

I smell a certain amount of naivety in this forum regarding the nature of how expansionist, authoritarian governments work - which sadly really does explain how the president of China went from being pulled around in a golden carriage through London into ''He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named'' in the span of David Cameron to Boris Johnson but I digress.
FYI: Pulling the thorn out of the giant's foot may or may not net you a best friend; but there will always be a hundred more giants waiting behind him who still hate you. They will still covet your lands, hate your god, hate your culture, hate your skin colour, hate the fact that your women or gays have rights etc. and one day they will put themselves back into a position of influence.

Well, there are always two options - be nice, but vigilant - or be a complete douchecanoe.
Kicking my enemy while he's down - that might be the douchecanoey thing to do. In especially, if we're not in times of war.

The last battle with the romulans ended with them helping the Enterprise against Shinzon - which, I think, makes them allies to us. So, if your allies have problems, for example a big Supernova happening, you frakking go to help them! That's the right thing to do. And even if they'd not be Starfleets allies, you still help them.

After helping Shinzon take control in the first place. Many military leaders backed his rise and attack on the Federation. They were annoyed it too him so long to follow through with it. The turn at the end was not well explained and seemed again for purely selfish reasons, not out of some desire to help the Federation or anything.

[Link8909]

I like Picard overall. It has plenty of flaws, and I hope things are ironed out a bit in the second season, but it was enjoyable overall.

I think episodes 1-3 could have been condensed into 2 episodes. It starts to drag a tad in episodes 2 and 3.

Clancy gets too much hate. Yeah she's angry but it's not entirely without reason and she may have history with Picard that makes it more personal. And she doesn't ignore his concerns. She can't just give him a ship but she does follow up with Starfleet Security. And later we will see her come through again. While I think sometimes they seem to put profanity in awkwardly just because they can (that scene he showed with Tilly was cringe to me, but I admit I didn't watch the episode itself), I didn't mind it here. It seemed kinda realistic if they do have some personal history.

As for helping the Romulans, on a macro level it is a complicated thing. Obviously the moral thing to do was to help. But the world is not so simple and those in charge have many things to weigh. And our own self interest always creeps in.

Yes, they helped against the Dominion. But they had to be tricked into that. They did it for 100% selfish reasons. And both before and after they've tried to destroy the Federation. Shinzon did not act alone. He had the backing of many military leaders, who were annoyed it was taking so long for him to follow through.

Pretty much agree here, Fleet Admiral Clancy does get too much hate as you say, and I've always said that the situation in Star Trek Picard is complicated that one can see both sides of the argument.

[Riedquat]

Nope, as I said before. The only logical response when your enemy is in trouble is to kick him in the balls and then either break his legs or expose his neck.

Morals and principles when it comes to dealing with an expansionist empire gets you invaded.

That's the sort of thing that keeps hatreds going for centuries past their sell-by date.

So just to be clear: you think that kindness will stop an empire from invading you. That is your position?

I didn't say that. Not being an arsehole isn't the same as being overly kind. "Kill or be killed, invade or be invaded", well, plenty of history seeing the results of that.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Nope, as I said before. The only logical response when your enemy is in trouble is to kick him in the balls and then either break his legs or expose his neck.

Morals and principles when it comes to dealing with an expansionist empire gets you invaded.

That's the sort of thing that keeps hatreds going for centuries past their sell-by date.

So just to be clear: you think that kindness will stop an empire from invading you. That is your position?

I didn't say that. Not being an arsehole isn't the same as being overly kind. "Kill or be killed, invade or be invaded", well, plenty of history seeing the results of that.

Very true, Riedquat, very true. Like I said - you can be vigilant, you can make sure, that the Romulans don't get too cocky, but for the sake of all that is good, they're in a dire situation and this calls for help.

Not to mention the fact that the Romulans aided the Federation against the Dominion.

Indeed, very true. As I said: They are the allies of the Federation - not the arch-enemy.

[GreyICE]

History also teaches us some particular lessons - expansionist empires are not long-term stable. I mean you can point to the Roman empire (which the Romulans are modeled on), but it did its expansion in a comparatively short time - around 219 BCE to 115 CE. And in the middle of that it had a complete government collapse and replacement of the Senate with an Emperor. At that point it split in half, and entered a tumultuous decline. In point of fact, at no real point were its borders ever truly stable - what was and wasn't Roman was in this state of ongoing flux.

And that was one of the more stable ones. The Mongols barely outlived their leader, Alexander the Great conquered a vast amount of the world and then had his empire fall to dust, the British empire never held great control of its colonies and in tightening its grasp managed to lose everything except Bermuda and the Falkland Islands. Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, expansionism rarely lasts.

So to me, it makes sense that the Federation knows its stability guarantees it will outlast the Romulan empire. The Romulans don't make good neighbors - but the Federation knows that. If they maintain the neutral zone, they'll eventually be around to pick up the pieces. The same strategy worked great with the Klingon empire.

Oddly the empire that wasn't expansionist was the Cardassian Empire. I mean they exploited Bajor, but when they saw no more benefit to be had in exploiting it, they turned around and went home. They weren't interested in more territory for Cardassia, they were interested in territory for slaves and material gain.

[MrL1992]

i get having preferences but why do some make such massive deal about the language? Comic book characters were doing herder stuff for years and they were initially conceived for children.

also that info on Janeway is news to me, damn, we were robbed of some quality InsaneWay material.

[Darth Wedgius]

The Roman Empire lasted over 500 years, conservatively. Empires can be unstable in the same way that thorium is.