Whiteness (according to the National Museum of African American History and Culture)

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Haha it was at a museum. How tacky.

Why didn't they just have a poster with a heading that goes, "Crackers be like..." with a bunch of punchlines below it.

Question: Did you actually read it?

If so, why did you think that?

It hasn't been particularly visible on my screen for some time since the first or first few times I saw it. I didn't think twice about it much because I thought it was a more of a floating meme. From what I remember it was a general path of life/career choices that included a host of unflattering arrogant qualities. So that's the deal there.

As a part of a museum, I don't think the idea for bringing awareness to more systemic forms of racism really includes such type of satire/ridicule. The effect of the graphic is more for people that understand systemic racism, while there's also an inevitable overlap between people that don't understand it and people it inadvertently applies to. And again, I still don't find it very egregious even, as other people have exhibited here. I haven't read the museum's comment after taking it down, but I'd like to think I understand the officiated reasons for doing so.

[GreyICE]

It hasn't been particularly visible on my screen for some time since the first or first few times I saw it. I didn't think twice about it much because I thought it was a more of a floating meme. From what I remember it was a general path of life/career choices that included a host of unflattering arrogant qualities. So that's the deal there.

As a part of a museum, I don't think the idea for bringing awareness to more systemic forms of racism really includes such type of satire/ridicule. The effect of the graphic is more for people that understand systemic racism, while there's also an inevitable overlap between people that don't understand it and people it inadvertently applies to. And again, I still don't find it very egregious even, as other people have exhibited here. I haven't read the museum's comment after taking it down, but I'd like to think I understand the officiated reasons for doing so.

It wasn't any sort of satire or ridicule. Here's a link, I posted it on Imgur: https://imgur.com/a/9Ho8huv

The purpose was to start a discussion on aspects of our culture we take for granted - because that's what culture is. Things, by and large, we take for granted. There's so many of them it's hard to count. We can be culture shocked just by being dropped into a place where personal space is six feet (two meters) - it's about four feet in America, mostly. Or a place where personal space is one foot. None of these three amounts is a "wrong" amount of personal space, it's just cultural differences.

I thought it was a fairly balanced look at white culture, or at least fair enough to be a good discussion starter. As I said earlier, I don't think too many points are entirely negative or positive, except the "Barbie" beauty standard - guess what, our culture has a fucked up beauty standard for women. News at 11, right?

As I said earlier, I'd be happy to discuss positives and negatives of any of those points. If nothing else it's a good exercise in writing science fiction (and understanding how limited some science fiction can be) - swapping any one of those cultural assumptions with a different one can really switch up a culture (eg. Respect Authority/Respect Age/Respect Experience/Challenge Authority/Communal Decision making/etc.)

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

It hasn't been particularly visible on my screen for some time since the first or first few times I saw it. I didn't think twice about it much because I thought it was a more of a floating meme. From what I remember it was a general path of life/career choices that included a host of unflattering arrogant qualities. So that's the deal there.

As a part of a museum, I don't think the idea for bringing awareness to more systemic forms of racism really includes such type of satire/ridicule. The effect of the graphic is more for people that understand systemic racism, while there's also an inevitable overlap between people that don't understand it and people it inadvertently applies to. And again, I still don't find it very egregious even, as other people have exhibited here. I haven't read the museum's comment after taking it down, but I'd like to think I understand the officiated reasons for doing so.

It wasn't any sort of satire or ridicule. Here's a link, I posted it on Imgur: https://imgur.com/a/9Ho8huv

The purpose was to start a discussion on aspects of our culture we take for granted - because that's what culture is. Things, by and large, we take for granted. There's so many of them it's hard to count. We can be culture shocked just by being dropped into a place where personal space is six feet (two meters) - it's about four feet in America, mostly. Or a place where personal space is one foot. None of these three amounts is a "wrong" amount of personal space, it's just cultural differences.

I thought it was a fairly balanced look at white culture, or at least fair enough to be a good discussion starter. As I said earlier, I don't think too many points are entirely negative or positive, except the "Barbie" beauty standard - guess what, our culture has a fucked up beauty standard for women. News at 11, right?

As I said earlier, I'd be happy to discuss positives and negatives of any of those points. If nothing else it's a good exercise in writing science fiction (and understanding how limited some science fiction can be) - swapping any one of those cultural assumptions with a different one can really switch up a culture (eg. Respect Authority/Respect Age/Respect Experience/Challenge Authority/Communal Decision making/etc.)

Well the infograph IS a bit more structured than I was remembering (while the announcement post removal was a bit less structured lol).

I'll go ahead and agree that ridicule isn't really in the cards here. I think this approach shares a bit with the approach of soft satire. It can be a fun eye opener, and I get that it's more about the specificity, for lack of a better word.

I personally don't think it's suited towards whiteness. It's one of those things where the traits are a normset of a more subset of white culture, and the graphic does enough to elicit problematic connotations of that subculture (just like among white culture and for non-racial reasons). And I think it does kind of allude to the characterization of white supremacy (so maybe I was a bit confused there). I do get it's actually more vanilla than that (pun deliciously intended), but while the condition as I see it with whiteness (I though) was to apply to virtually any caucasian, I can see how this comes off as not doing that and causing confusion in a few other corners/pockets perhaps.

[GreyICE]

Well the infograph IS a bit more structured than I was remembering (while the announcement post removal was a bit less structured lol).

I'll go ahead and agree that ridicule isn't really in the cards here. I think this approach shares a bit with the approach of soft satire. It can be a fun eye opener, and I get that it's more about the specificity, for lack of a better word.

I personally don't think it's suited towards whiteness. It's one of those things where the traits are a normset of a more subset of white culture, and the graphic does enough to elicit problematic connotations of that subculture (just like among white culture and for non-racial reasons). And I think it does kind of allude to the characterization of white supremacy (so maybe I was a bit confused there). I do get it's actually more vanilla than that (pun deliciously intended), but while the condition as I see it with whiteness (I though) was to apply to virtually any caucasian, I can see how this comes off as not doing that and causing confusion in a few other corners/pockets perhaps.

I believe that multiple academic volumes have been written on culture. There's almost endless cultures. Cultures of the midwest, the south, the Lousiana bayou culture, the culture of Cuban immigrants in Florida, the culture of rural versus urban versus Suburban. Different flavors of Suburban culture. You can break it down on many microcultures and structures almost fractally. I mean just think what a seismic shift smartphones are to culture. It's hard to compare pre-smartphone culture to post-smartphone culture, and now there's an entirely new cultural issue of not having smartphones.

So I would think any possible infographic, or essay, or even full scholarly work would be utterly unable to capture the entirety of culture, even "culture of people with white skin in the United States of America." I mean just look at the random example I pulled out, "personal space". Absolutely an element of culture! Not on the infographic. There's hundreds, thousands of these.

I do think it should have succeeded in being a good starting point for discussion on:

• Cultural assumptions we believe are universal, but are instead simply assumptions
• Cultural assumptions we believe are superior, but are instead just one viewpoint
• Cultural assumptions we make about how other people are thinking, that cause harmful misunderstandings of their intentions

For instance, someone who comes from a culture that has the value respect age who comes on a job might look to the oldest worker on the site to learn from/take guidance from rather than the boss (respect authority). This might be taken as an indication that the worker doesn't respect the boss, and thus taken as an insult. But instead a little bit of understanding can align values between the two, and stop any misunderstandings.

I thought it might be a valuable tool to start those sorts of discussions. Clearly it wasn't, so the museum took it down, but I don't see any "ill intent" there. Maybe that in and of itself is cultural. Black people in America are often used to their culture being questioned and challenged, so the idea of questioning and challenging cultural values might not be as transgressive for them. Clearly questioning cultural values is extremely transgressive for white culture in America, and that itself is a cultural difference leading to misunderstanding.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well the infograph IS a bit more structured than I was remembering (while the announcement post removal was a bit less structured lol).

I'll go ahead and agree that ridicule isn't really in the cards here. I think this approach shares a bit with the approach of soft satire. It can be a fun eye opener, and I get that it's more about the specificity, for lack of a better word.

I personally don't think it's suited towards whiteness. It's one of those things where the traits are a normset of a more subset of white culture, and the graphic does enough to elicit problematic connotations of that subculture (just like among white culture and for non-racial reasons). And I think it does kind of allude to the characterization of white supremacy (so maybe I was a bit confused there). I do get it's actually more vanilla than that (pun deliciously intended), but while the condition as I see it with whiteness (I though) was to apply to virtually any caucasian, I can see how this comes off as not doing that and causing confusion in a few other corners/pockets perhaps.

I believe that multiple academic volumes have been written on culture. There's almost endless cultures. Cultures of the midwest, the south, the Lousiana bayou culture, the culture of Cuban immigrants in Florida, the culture of rural versus urban versus Suburban. Different flavors of Suburban culture. You can break it down on many microcultures and structures almost fractally. I mean just think what a seismic shift smartphones are to culture. It's hard to compare pre-smartphone culture to post-smartphone culture, and now there's an entirely new cultural issue of not having smartphones.

So I would think any possible infographic, or essay, or even full scholarly work would be utterly unable to capture the entirety of culture, even "culture of people with white skin in the United States of America." I mean just look at the random example I pulled out, "personal space". Absolutely an element of culture! Not on the infographic. There's hundreds, thousands of these.

I'd have to say that I'm with you 100 there. So up to now I guess it's pretty understandable more how they were going about it.

I do think it should have succeeded in being a good starting point for discussion on:

• Cultural assumptions we believe are universal, but are instead simply assumptions
• Cultural assumptions we believe are superior, but are instead just one viewpoint
• Cultural assumptions we make about how other people are thinking, that cause harmful misunderstandings of their intentions

I could be wrong, but museums I feel are supposed to be on a totally exposed basis with what they're exhibiting instead of a more abstract and somewhat vague approach.

For instance, someone who comes from a culture that has the value respect age who comes on a job might look to the oldest worker on the site to learn from/take guidance from rather than the boss (respect authority). This might be taken as an indication that the worker doesn't respect the boss, and thus taken as an insult. But instead a little bit of understanding can align values between the two, and stop any misunderstandings.

America in particular tends to get scrutinized a bit to this regard because of its relative age. Though really a lot of Western Europe has pretty rich tradition in a lot of family heritages among the land.

I'm more familiar with American / Indigenous relations, but there's also Eastern/Western contrasts that can be a bit more contemporary I would think.

I thought it might be a valuable tool to start those sorts of discussions. Clearly it wasn't, so the museum took it down, but I don't see any "ill intent" there. Maybe that in and of itself is cultural. Black people in America are often used to their culture being questioned and challenged, so the idea of questioning and challenging cultural values might not be as transgressive for them. Clearly questioning cultural values is extremely transgressive for white culture in America, and that itself is a cultural difference leading to misunderstanding.

To be fair, I'm sure the response was a bit more due to noise to some extent and not all proper reason.

[Darth Wedgius]

The museum has apologized for the graphic.

It is important for us as a country to talk about race. We thank those who shared concerns about our ‘Talking About Race” online portal. We need these types of frank and respectful interchanges as we as a country grapple with how we talk about race and its impact on our lives. We erred in including the chart. We have removed it, and we apologize.

That's good. But the diseased thinking that caused it might still be there.

and their sorry they "included" it, not what was on it or creating it in the first place.

and they fell back on the old bullsh*t line of "starting a conversation" every progressive activist or group uses when whey say or post something this garbage.

Yeah, the starting a conversation excuse has also been used for calling for white genocide. Literally. It's getting kind of old. And now BLM is using it for extortion. More on that in another thread about yet another bit of evil from the forces of "tolerance."

[ProfessorDetective]

The museum has apologized for the graphic.

It is important for us as a country to talk about race. We thank those who shared concerns about our ‘Talking About Race” online portal. We need these types of frank and respectful interchanges as we as a country grapple with how we talk about race and its impact on our lives. We erred in including the chart. We have removed it, and we apologize.

That's good. But the diseased thinking that caused it might still be there.

and their sorry they "included" it, not what was on it or creating it in the first place.

and they fell back on the old bullsh*t line of "starting a conversation" every progressive activist or group uses when whey say or post something this garbage.

Yeah, the starting a conversation excuse has also been used for calling for white genocide.

Okay, can you define 'White Genocide' for me? Are we talking 'round up the white people in camps' or my parents 'if the races intermingle, then "white" people will just stop existing'. Also define 'white', because that could mean anything from 'European-descended' to 'Anglo-Saxon-descended' to just 'pale skinned'. Because, at various points, Italians, The Irish, and the Jewish, didn't count as 'white', at least in the USA, so you've GOT to be specific, there.

[GreyICE]

I could be wrong, but museums I feel are supposed to be on a totally exposed basis with what they're exhibiting instead of a more abstract and somewhat vague approach.

There's actually been a lot of conversations about Museums' role in society. Acknowledging that many early museums were elitist (many required you to be a certain class to even enter, and were not for the general public) and often more than a little racist and classist, many museums have moved to more their role being to inform and educate, rather than simply exhibit. Although that varies - most art museums focus more on displaying the art than telling you the significance and techniques (often simply presenting with little context), but in history museums in particular often move towards the educational side, trying to inform and educate. History museums are vulnerable to the "here is the strange things done by strange people elsewhere and elsewhen" issue, where things done by other cultures and in other times are seen as strange curiosities, rather than understood in context.

History isn't a collection of dates, written accounts, and recovered artifacts. History is a narrative, a story. Those artifacts are supporting evidence that a particular historical story is true. That's one of the reason museums are moving to educate and present the full story, rather than simply the supporting evidence - which would be like a museum of science that presents an experiment without telling you the results or significance. And if history is a narrative, culture is a conversation. It's who we are, on a fundamental level, and to some degree can only be studied from the outside.

America in particular tends to get scrutinized a bit to this regard because of its relative age. Though really a lot of Western Europe has pretty rich tradition in a lot of family heritages among the land.

I'm more familiar with American / Indigenous relations, but there's also Eastern/Western contrasts that can be a bit more contemporary I would think...

To be fair, I'm sure the response was a bit more due to noise to some extent and not all proper reason.

There's many examples I could use, I'd hardly claim to use the best.

I will say that when you find a point that seems to cause irrational anger or disgust, you've often found one of those times you're rubbing a cultural taboo. If you suggest someone goes and rubs shit all over their face then sets themselves on fire, they'll probably recoil from you with disgust, and that's rational. If you offer someone a slice of the bacon you're eating and they recoil with disgust just like you suggested they eat shit, you've probably found a cultural aversion. And if someone offered you a piece of rat or a slice of dog, you'd probably do the same. Cultural aversion.

I believe the part of our culture that likes to think we are rational, logical, and fully informed and educated recoils at presenting our culture like we'd present any culture - we believe it's more logical, and therefore should be on a pedestal, and that even presenting it as simply one culture among many, neither good nor bad, is inherently insulting. In some ways more insulting than attacking it, because attacking it would be saying its important, while just presenting it is saying "it's one of many."

Although if you want to say it's being hijacked by racists who want to present this as some sort of call-to-arms to commit "white genocide", well then I wouldn't argue with you. There's certainly those folks, but I think it's deeper than just simply that. I don't think the museum intended to cross a cultural taboo, but unfortunately they did.

[CmdrKing]

There's actually been a lot of conversations about Museums' role in society. Acknowledging that many early museums were elitist (many required you to be a certain class to even enter, and were not for the general public) and often more than a little racist and classist, many museums have moved to more their role being to inform and educate, rather than simply exhibit. Although that varies - most art museums focus more on displaying the art than telling you the significance and techniques (often simply presenting with little context), but in history museums in particular often move towards the educational side, trying to inform and educate.

Heck, a good art museum *should* still be doing that, and many do (if in an abstract way at time). How you group your pieces and arrange them in an art museum absolutely tells a story, and If your curators aren’t doing so with intent they aren’t very good curators.

Usually that story is more of the culture and conversations among artists (in terms of how techniques and their meanings spread from one artist to another and how they shift over time), but that tells us a lot about how culture changes since art, one way another, is always product of and response to culture.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Museums should be fun. We can't afford to requisite strenuous sociological hypothesizing from pupils in a humid cultural environment such that.. haha not srs.