“All lives matter” protesters drop the mask

[Dragon Ball Fan]

and I realize that I am coming of like I don't care about the issues and not really adding to the main conversation but I felt I had to say what I did.

[GreyICE]

okay, okay, that is horrible but no one in my personal life would even slightly downplay those terrorist attacks. I think that's another thing, everyone I know of already knows it's bad and should be stopped, so, even if intellectually, we may realize there are systematic problems, the people in my life, myself included, just don't see anyone being apathetic to racism nor domestic terrorism.

Apathetic - showing or feeling no interest, enthusiasm, or concern.

How often would you say that your father and your cop relatives show interest or concern about racism and domestic terrorism from the right wing? What enthusiasm have they shown towards stopping it? Have they protested racism? Lobbied against racism? Worked to end racism in the police force and raise awareness? Do they volunteer with the community, work with impoverished people of all colors, foster understanding?

Saying "yeah, racism is bad, but it's not really a problem we can do anything about" seems a bit apathetic to me. And unfortunately it feels to me there's a sizeable chunk of Americans who are taking that position.

and there was that cop serial killer a few years back, sure, he wasn't associated with BLM but wasn't he a black guy using police brutality as a justification?

Was that the LAPD officer who was the victim of racism and then went nuts and killed a bunch of cops? I thought that affair was disgusting all around. I think there was some support, as the LAPD is one of the most well-known racist organizations in the country, but it wasn't particularly widespread, especially when he shot non-cops. Then the LAPD shot some innocent women... that was a shitshow. I definitely don't support that.

and I admit, I wrongfully collectivized the protestors but why not think of cops the same way, as a video I found pointed out, not all police departments across the country operate the same way, let alone the fact that not every individual cop abuses their power.

You'll notice that these are all city-based movements. For instance I'm supporting the protests in Seattle, the SPD is an extremely racist piece of shit organization. LAPD can go, Minneapolis can go, NYPD can go, etc. etc. etc.

There are some good police forces, and you can note them because the demonstrations in solidarity have been non-violent and in fact, as you've said, in a few places police have joined in. There's no legislation on the national level to address this. The few things that are discussed on a national level - ending qualified immunity, reforming civil forfeiture - wouldn't really affect the good police departments. A good police department isn't stealing more money than thieves, or relying on "qualified immunity" to defend themselves.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

okay, fine. and to be clear, if I was actually at the protests, I probably would at the very least passively support them unless they were hurting bystanders or cops who didn't do anything first.

and violence is sometimes needed but the point that confuses me is, if there are peaceful protests going on, why are the violent ones needed? violence is only necessary when peaceful resolutions are completely impossible.

This is the "central planning fallacy", that there's some great behind-the-scenes group (the illuminati? Majestic 12?) that is coordinating everything, and making everything happen. Instead it's a widely disparate group of movements in cities, with multiple in a city. Seattle alone has at least a dozen different groups protesting. Overall there's probably hundreds, maybe over a thousand different groups across the country.

So when you ask "why is X needed", try to look at people more as individuals and groups, and less as some grand collective that is deciding what to do like some hydra. Most of the protesters denounce violence, many actively work to stop it. Many of the cities have not had violence. As we discussed earlier.

and I don't think the protests are going to really lead to police or white people being marginalized anytime soon but I'd like it if the radical brand of the left's ideology is kept from spreading so nothing like that happens in the first place. if it's bad for the right to be complacent about their extremists, how come it's okay for woke types to act like the extremists in their groups will never ever be a problem?

Lets examine what's different really fast:

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2020/03/18/year-hate-and-extremism-2019

Like the year before, 2019 saw a spate of domestic terror attacks, both at home and abroad. In Poway, California, a gunman attacked a synagogue, killing a 60-year-old woman and wounding a rabbi and two other people. Also in that state, a man wielding a semi-automatic rifle killed three at the Gilroy Garlic Festival. And three days before the end of the year, in a New York City suburb, a man burst into a rabbi’s home and began slashing people with a machete, wounding five, during a Hanukkah celebration.

By far, the worst carnage wrought by domestic extremists came on Aug. 3 at a Walmart in the border city of El Paso, Texas, a city that is nearly 80 percent Hispanic, when a man opened fire with an AK-47 just as parents and children were taking advantage of a tax-free shopping day before the beginning of the school year. Twenty-two people were killed and another 26 injured...

The number of people killed in white nationalist terror attacks might have been higher if not for several key arrests. In February, a Coast Guard lieutenant—based at the Coast Guard headquarters in Washington, D.C.—was arrested with a stockpile of weapons and a hit list of Democratic politicians and media figures. The FBI said he was a self-identified white nationalist and an admirer of the Norwegian terrorist who killed 77 people during an anti-Muslim rampage in 2011. In addition, a Winter Park, Florida, man with a history of posting racist and antisemitic threats on social media was arrested for plotting to attack a Walmart just days after the mass killing in El Paso. Other white supremacists were arrested for bombing plots that targeted religious institutions, dams and other infrastructure, and law enforcement.

What we're looking at is mass murder here. And far from backing off their rhetoric, they're pushing it harder. They see these as a success. These are not hypothetical attacks occurring at some point in the future, these are real terrorist attacks perpetrated by white nationalists right now. And what do we see? The police force working with white nationalists. We see the police supporting terrorism.

In contrast we have "at some point in the future some 'left wing' might start mass killing cops." Okay. Do you know the fun thing about hypotheticals? They haven't happened. Right wing violence is happening right now. And worse, it's normal. Did you even remember the El Paso massacre? A white supremacist murdered twenty-two people, injured twenty-five more, and you forgot.


Do you know how many cops have been killed in the "wave of violence"? One. Do you know who killed him? A right-wing member of the Boogaloo movement.

So yeah, I'll be more concerned about hypothetical future violence when I see any sign that anyone gives more of a shit about real, actual terrorism occurring right now. Because you now have what, fifty posts about how awful the black lives matter movement is because some day a cop might get hurt, and zero posts about how bad the movement that ACTUALLY KILLED A COP is.


Why are you more scared about hypothetical violence against cops than the people actually killing cops?

okay, okay, that is horrible but no one in my personal life would even slightly downplay those terrorist attacks. I think that's another thing, everyone I know of already knows it's bad and should be stopped, so, even if intellectually, we may realize there are systematic problems, the people in my life, myself included, just don't see anyone being apathetic to racism nor domestic terrorism.

Really? What are they saying about it? What actions are they taking? Tell me more. Test your assumptions.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

okay, okay, that is horrible but no one in my personal life would even slightly downplay those terrorist attacks. I think that's another thing, everyone I know of already knows it's bad and should be stopped, so, even if intellectually, we may realize there are systematic problems, the people in my life, myself included, just don't see anyone being apathetic to racism nor domestic terrorism.

Apathetic - showing or feeling no interest, enthusiasm, or concern.

How often would you say that your father and your cop relatives show interest or concern about racism and domestic terrorism from the right wing? What enthusiasm have they shown towards stopping it? Have they protested racism? Lobbied against racism? Worked to end racism in the police force and raise awareness? Do they volunteer with the community, work with impoverished people of all colors, foster understanding?

Saying "yeah, racism is bad, but it's not really a problem we can do anything about" seems a bit apathetic to me. And unfortunately it feels to me there's a sizeable chunk of Americans who are taking that position.

and there was that cop serial killer a few years back, sure, he wasn't associated with BLM but wasn't he a black guy using police brutality as a justification?

Was that the LAPD officer who was the victim of racism and then went nuts and killed a bunch of cops? I thought that affair was disgusting all around. I think there was some support, as the LAPD is one of the most well-known racist organizations in the country, but it wasn't particularly widespread, especially when he shot non-cops. Then the LAPD shot some innocent women... that was a shitshow. I definitely don't support that.

and I admit, I wrongfully collectivized the protestors but why not think of cops the same way, as a video I found pointed out, not all police departments across the country operate the same way, let alone the fact that not every individual cop abuses their power.

You'll notice that these are all city-based movements. For instance I'm supporting the protests in Seattle, the SPD is an extremely racist piece of shit organization. LAPD can go, Minneapolis can go, NYPD can go, etc. etc. etc.

There are some good police forces, and you can note them because the demonstrations in solidarity have been non-violent and in fact, as you've said, in a few places police have joined in. There's no legislation on the national level to address this. The few things that are discussed on a national level - ending qualified immunity, reforming civil forfeiture - wouldn't really affect the good police departments. A good police department isn't stealing more money than thieves, or relying on "qualified immunity" to defend themselves.

okay, I really don't have an issue with most of that but two things, I'm sure my family members would do at least some of those things, I don't see most of them that often but still have no reason to think they wouldn't do those things.

and I'd like it better if the cop killer got absolutely no support.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

okay, fine. and to be clear, if I was actually at the protests, I probably would at the very least passively support them unless they were hurting bystanders or cops who didn't do anything first.

and violence is sometimes needed but the point that confuses me is, if there are peaceful protests going on, why are the violent ones needed? violence is only necessary when peaceful resolutions are completely impossible.

This is the "central planning fallacy", that there's some great behind-the-scenes group (the illuminati? Majestic 12?) that is coordinating everything, and making everything happen. Instead it's a widely disparate group of movements in cities, with multiple in a city. Seattle alone has at least a dozen different groups protesting. Overall there's probably hundreds, maybe over a thousand different groups across the country.

So when you ask "why is X needed", try to look at people more as individuals and groups, and less as some grand collective that is deciding what to do like some hydra. Most of the protesters denounce violence, many actively work to stop it. Many of the cities have not had violence. As we discussed earlier.

and I don't think the protests are going to really lead to police or white people being marginalized anytime soon but I'd like it if the radical brand of the left's ideology is kept from spreading so nothing like that happens in the first place. if it's bad for the right to be complacent about their extremists, how come it's okay for woke types to act like the extremists in their groups will never ever be a problem?

Lets examine what's different really fast:

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2020/03/18/year-hate-and-extremism-2019

Like the year before, 2019 saw a spate of domestic terror attacks, both at home and abroad. In Poway, California, a gunman attacked a synagogue, killing a 60-year-old woman and wounding a rabbi and two other people. Also in that state, a man wielding a semi-automatic rifle killed three at the Gilroy Garlic Festival. And three days before the end of the year, in a New York City suburb, a man burst into a rabbi’s home and began slashing people with a machete, wounding five, during a Hanukkah celebration.

By far, the worst carnage wrought by domestic extremists came on Aug. 3 at a Walmart in the border city of El Paso, Texas, a city that is nearly 80 percent Hispanic, when a man opened fire with an AK-47 just as parents and children were taking advantage of a tax-free shopping day before the beginning of the school year. Twenty-two people were killed and another 26 injured...

The number of people killed in white nationalist terror attacks might have been higher if not for several key arrests. In February, a Coast Guard lieutenant—based at the Coast Guard headquarters in Washington, D.C.—was arrested with a stockpile of weapons and a hit list of Democratic politicians and media figures. The FBI said he was a self-identified white nationalist and an admirer of the Norwegian terrorist who killed 77 people during an anti-Muslim rampage in 2011. In addition, a Winter Park, Florida, man with a history of posting racist and antisemitic threats on social media was arrested for plotting to attack a Walmart just days after the mass killing in El Paso. Other white supremacists were arrested for bombing plots that targeted religious institutions, dams and other infrastructure, and law enforcement.

What we're looking at is mass murder here. And far from backing off their rhetoric, they're pushing it harder. They see these as a success. These are not hypothetical attacks occurring at some point in the future, these are real terrorist attacks perpetrated by white nationalists right now. And what do we see? The police force working with white nationalists. We see the police supporting terrorism.

In contrast we have "at some point in the future some 'left wing' might start mass killing cops." Okay. Do you know the fun thing about hypotheticals? They haven't happened. Right wing violence is happening right now. And worse, it's normal. Did you even remember the El Paso massacre? A white supremacist murdered twenty-two people, injured twenty-five more, and you forgot.


Do you know how many cops have been killed in the "wave of violence"? One. Do you know who killed him? A right-wing member of the Boogaloo movement.

So yeah, I'll be more concerned about hypothetical future violence when I see any sign that anyone gives more of a shit about real, actual terrorism occurring right now. Because you now have what, fifty posts about how awful the black lives matter movement is because some day a cop might get hurt, and zero posts about how bad the movement that ACTUALLY KILLED A COP is.


Why are you more scared about hypothetical violence against cops than the people actually killing cops?

okay, okay, that is horrible but no one in my personal life would even slightly downplay those terrorist attacks. I think that's another thing, everyone I know of already knows it's bad and should be stopped, so, even if intellectually, we may realize there are systematic problems, the people in my life, myself included, just don't see anyone being apathetic to racism nor domestic terrorism.

Really? What are they saying about it? What actions are they taking? Tell me more. Test your assumptions.

they at least passively support the protests with the exception of the ACAB slogon, like me.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Please clarify. How do they support it? And what parts of GreyIce's statements do you agree with vs which do you not agree with?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

Please clarify. How do they support it? And what parts of GreyIce's statements do you agree with vs which do you not agree with?

only his points that I responded to I had any issue with. and my family agrees with the general goal of the protests but hate the generalizations of every single cop in the country that seem to be being pushed.

[GreyICE]

okay, I really don't have an issue with most of that but two things, I'm sure my family members would do at least some of those things, I don't see most of them that often but still have no reason to think they wouldn't do those things.

and I'd like it better if the cop killer got absolutely no support.

I'd really like it if killer cops got absolutely no support, yet every single time they get plenty of it. So here we are.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

okay, I really don't have an issue with most of that but two things, I'm sure my family members would do at least some of those things, I don't see most of them that often but still have no reason to think they wouldn't do those things.

and I'd like it better if the cop killer got absolutely no support.

I'd really like it if killer cops got absolutely no support, yet every single time they get plenty of it. So here we are.

the police is a specific sub issue that this wouldn't help but for the over all issue, I read that Martin Luther King Jr. himself advocated social collorblindness, as in, ignoring the social construct of race completely.

[GreyICE]

okay, I really don't have an issue with most of that but two things, I'm sure my family members would do at least some of those things, I don't see most of them that often but still have no reason to think they wouldn't do those things.

and I'd like it better if the cop killer got absolutely no support.

I'd really like it if killer cops got absolutely no support, yet every single time they get plenty of it. So here we are.

the police is a specific sub issue that this wouldn't help but for the over all issue, I read that Martin Luther King Jr. himself advocated social collorblindness, as in, ignoring the social construct of race completely.

Yes, as an ideal end state. The way we get there is not to stick our head in the sand and ignore racists right now. The ideal would be to develop a vaccine to COVID so it's not a danger, but you don't accelerate that process by pretending it doesn't exist in the meantime, do you?