DIS Will you take my hand

[Artabax]

[url]https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/c115.php[/url]
Chuck defines Tilly as Wesley Crusher done well.
I define Michael as Wesley done slightly better and Tilly as Barclay done slightly better.

Michael is the Pet, awesome at every thing and if you don't care for her, you will hate the whole show. But she is a more engaging character than Wesley slightly.

Tilly, neurotic background character who comes through it all with Glory, fits Reg like a glove. Original Barclay was so great that only small improvements are possible.

[Link8909]

Chuck defines Tilly as Wesley Crusher done well.
I define Michael as Wesley done slightly better and Tilly as Barclay done slightly better.

Michael is the Pet, awesome at every thing and if you don't care for her, you will hate the whole show. But she is a more engaging character than Wesley slightly.

Tilly, neurotic background character who comes through it all with Glory, fits Reg like a glove. Original Barclay was so great that only small improvements are possible.

That's fair, I personally like both Michael Burnham and Sylvia Tilly myself.

Like you said, Michael is very engaging, has an interesting backstory, and her actress Sonequa Martin-Green is great, I think she shined much more in Season 2 since she didn't have the guilt of her mutiny hanging over her, and the biggest issue with Michael is that she carries too much of the story, but I'd still take her over Wesley any day, Michael being good at most thing can easily attributed to her Vulcan training, years serving Starfleet and passion for science, she is in the role of smart person in the series much like Spock or Data in theirs, Wesley has no such training or experience, yet always knows better that everyone else on the USS Enterprise-D or has the answer to any problem, even though the crew is suppose to be the best of the best and yet because of this they come across as idiots.

Tilly is just a fun character and was always a bright spot in the dark toned Season 1, and I see your comparison, and yet both bring something different, for example Reg Barclay is an introvert while Tilly is an extrovert, but both are awkward around people that develop over time.

[Mabus]

I never understood the point of making Burnham "Spock's secret relative", it's not like the last time that happened the end result was better. It didn't add anything new of value to the lore or to the story, it just feels like cheating the audience into caring for the new character without giving said character any proper development. I mean, a few other new characters were a bit more interesting in the limited time they appeared (like Lorca and Ash), as they at least did something a bit more original.
Why couldn't it have been some other random Vulcan family that adopted her?

[Link8909]

I never understood the point of making Burnham "Spock's secret relative", it's not like the last time that happened the end result was better. It didn't add anything new of value to the lore or to the story, it just feels like cheating the audience into caring for the new character without giving said character any proper development. I mean, a few other new characters were a bit more interesting in the limited time they appeared (like Lorca and Ash), as they at least did something a bit more original.
Why couldn't it have been some other random Vulcan family that adopted her?

While I like the interactions between Michael and Spock in Season 2, and it gave use a closer look a Sarak and his fascination with humanity, this was an unnecessary addition and is what I mean by her carrying too much of the story, Season 1 of Discovery had her dealing with quite a lot of personal stories (the death of her parents, her fear against the Vulcan extremists, her mutiny and guilt of getting her Captain killed and her love interest with Ash Tyler) and Season 1 only touched on that part.

With the benefit of hindsight, these story elements could have been given to other characters, for example the romance was more interesting from Ash Tyler's perspective so maybe he could have fell in love with Lieutenant Keyla Detmer (the Helmsman) instead, or as some have said just have Michael be a student without the adoption, you could still explore both Sarak and Spock.

Still, what's done is done, and I'm glad that a lot of these story elements have been resolved and come Season 3 Michael won't have to carry the entire series.

[CrypticMirror]

I never understood the point of making Burnham "Spock's secret relative", it's not like the last time that happened the end result was better.

... it just feels like cheating the audience into caring for the new character without giving said character any proper development.

That is literally all it is. A cheap hook for the audience in lieu of actual characterisation or worldbuilding. Maybe with a bit of gratuitous self gratification for the showrunner too.

Pretty much the same reason fanficcers write all of those benighted secret relative fanfics. At least Star Trek V:The Final Frontier tried to do something with it, by trying to have it be the reason Spock was torn between Kirk and Sybok. The execution was godawful in that, but at least it was there. Discovery does nothing with it except try to make it a cheap hook, and then retroactively ruin the character of Spock later.

[CharlesPhipps]

Season One of DISCO feels very much like a story where it was rewritten in mid-arc and from all accounts that was exactly what happened. Bryan Fuller had a bunch of ideas about the Klingon War, T'Kuvma, and more that I think were set up before Kurtzman took over. I tend to believe the Mirror Universe is where he took over.

Am I wrong to think that Lorca probably wasn't meant to be a Mirror Universe guy? Maybe. However, it's pretty obvious that a lot of the plots they chose to go with are lesser than the ones they could have.

Over on the Star Trek BBS, a person named The Memetic Susurrus posted this and I agree with all their points to the point I might as well not write it out:

A nuanced portrayal of a wartime commander who'd suffered a lot, was still suffering, and had more common sense and strategic acumen than all of the Admiralty combined...

...nah, he's Mirror Universe. Because Prime Universe Starfleet captains are all utopian weenies (except for Kirk but, apparently, the writers have forgotten that Kirk acted a lot like Lorca did and no one's condemned him for it).

A sensitive portrayal of a male victim of sexual abuse and torture (by a woman, no less!), suffering from PTSD, and struggling to come to grips with the aftermath of what he'd experienced...

...nah, he's this completely implausible bastard stepchild of Frankenstein's Monster and the Manchurian Candidate.

A realistic portrayal of a human, raised on Vulcan, who's struggling to find her way, only to make a horrible decision to mutiny against her surrogate mother/captain, and now must find a way to redeem herself every time she looks in the mirror...

...nah, mutiny is no big effin' thing; here's a full expungement of your record.

Good lord, they could've done so much with all of these issues but...they didn't. They didn't do it. They went the easy way out with each and every one of them and the end result was a poorer product, in my estimation.

[BunBun299]

Personally, I'll take Wesley Crusher over Michael or Tilly any day. But then, I have a deep personal loathing of Kurtzman Trek.

No matter what they ever do with her, I can never over look the fact that Michael in her very first episode assaulted her Captain and committed mutiny. Maybe if they had done something to endear us to the character first, or given us some sort of reason to agree with her reasons, it might be different. But I don't agree with her reasons, I thought Georgiou was making the right call under the circumstances. I think Michael should never breath free air again. Even if you want to argue that she should somehow be pardoned, and get out of prison, she has proven she should never be trusted to wear a Starfleet uniform again.

What little I've seen of Tilly, she annoyed me.

[CharlesPhipps]

Personally, I'll take Wesley Crusher over Michael or Tilly any day. But then, I have a deep personal loathing of Kurtzman Trek.

No matter what they ever do with her, I can never over look the fact that Michael in her very first episode assaulted her Captain and committed mutiny.

I feel like some fans just pretend they don't have PTSD or that Michael didn't suffer it. Bones tried to kill Kirk while drugged up ("City on the Edge of Forever") and I don't see any difference.

Also, Kirk mutineed in Star Trek 3, stealing a starship to go to Genesis.

Spock mutineed when he needed to steal the ship to go to Vulcan for his marriage.

Spock mutineed when he needed to go to Talos IV to help Christopher Pike.

The crew mutineed when they went to Rura Penthe in order to rescue Captain Kirk.

Data mutineed when he disabled the ship to meet with Noonian Soong.

Are we seriously pretending Michael's actions are remotely worse than any of these?

I think Michael should never breath free air again. Even if you want to argue that she should somehow be pardoned, and get out of prison, she has proven she should never be trusted to wear a Starfleet uniform again.

Except T'Kuvma was there to murder everyone and did.

Captain Georgiou obviously forgave her and recruited her for an operation as Captains are won't to do.

[Mabus]

I never understood the point of making Burnham "Spock's secret relative", it's not like the last time that happened the end result was better.

... it just feels like cheating the audience into caring for the new character without giving said character any proper development.

That is literally all it is. A cheap hook for the audience in lieu of actual characterisation or worldbuilding. Maybe with a bit of gratuitous self gratification for the showrunner too.

Pretty much the same reason fanficcers write all of those benighted secret relative fanfics. At least Star Trek V:The Final Frontier tried to do something with it, by trying to have it be the reason Spock was torn between Kirk and Sybok. The execution was godawful in that, but at least it was there. Discovery does nothing with it except try to make it a cheap hook, and then retroactively ruin the character of Spock later.

NuTrek reminds me of that quote by Ian Malcolm from the first Jurassic Park film:

"You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now... you're selling it, you wanna sell it."

[Link8909]

No matter what they ever do with her, I can never over look the fact that Michael in her very first episode assaulted her Captain and committed mutiny. Maybe if they had done something to endear us to the character first, or given us some sort of reason to agree with her reasons, it might be different. But I don't agree with her reasons, I thought Georgiou was making the right call under the circumstances. I think Michael should never breath free air again. Even if you want to argue that she should somehow be pardoned, and get out of prison, she has proven she should never be trusted to wear a Starfleet uniform again.

Would you like her to be flogged before her execution, or would you like to skip the formality's and get the Firing Squad.