No one is too big to fail - Disney

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GreyICE
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Re: No one is too big to fail - Disney

Post by GreyICE »

Darth Wedgius wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:54 pm GreyICE, you aren't usually this slow. As I said, Ford does create demand, even though they aren't the customer. There are people as loyal to Ford trucks as to God, America, or the local football team. If there are no more Ford trucks, enthusiasm for that next truck can fall, and, with it, the number of auto-making jobs.

It's funny how you missed the point I started out with.
Ah yes, those elusive people who make a $30,000 impulse buy of the latest Ford truck because they just can't be seen in last season's Ford. I'll admit there's even a thousand people in all of America who treat Ford pickup trucks as fashion accessories and just have to have the latest one for their Ford collection, like it's a designer purse.

But lets not pretend. That logic can work on things like designer purses and other fashion accessories, but the vast majority of pickup trucks are bought by someone who needs a pickup truck specifically, or needs a vehicle generally. The people who need a vehicle generally are the ones who might not buy a pickup truck if Ford goes, but they'll buy some other similar vehicle - they still need some flavor of transportation that moves when you hit the gas pedal. And the people who need a pickup truck for its ability to transport things in the bed will buy a new truck when it makes financial sense to, that demand is as steady as a rock.

But lets say that you're right. Lets say that there's some value to the "Ford" designer label. Do you know what creditors want? Money. So if Ford is bankrupt, and the name "Ford" has value, then they'll sell the name "Ford" to a company who can put it on their pickup trucks. If it's the Ford F-150 design that's valuable, they'll sell that design to a company (who probably also want the factory that makes it).

Inevitably a small group of people on the internet will grouch that the 2023 F-150 isn't as good as the 2018 F-150 and everything has gone to shit, but that'd happen anyway.

If something like the label "Ford" has value, it'll be sold. That's what creditors do. They sell things that are worth something. Brands aren't sacred, they're a word and logo design registered with the Trademark office, and that registration can be bought and sold. There's quite a few former car companies that live on as logos some other company owns.
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Re: No one is too big to fail - Disney

Post by Darth Wedgius »

GreyICE blathered:
Ah yes, those elusive people who make a $30,000 impulse buy of the latest Ford truck because they just can't be seen in last season's Ford. I'll admit there's even a thousand people in all of America who treat Ford pickup trucks as fashion accessories and just have to have the latest one for their Ford collection, like it's a designer purse.
Straw man. I'm shocked. :roll:

People who need a truck will buy a truck if they can. People who don't need a truck will buy a truck too, sometimes. But people who need a truck and see a new model coming out will buy a truck sooner if they are enthusiastic.

For all the crying out right-wingers as not dealing with nuance, sometimes the left really doesn't handle complexity well. Or pretends to when they think it's convenient.

Selling the brand works if the name is what's important, and I think that's more important for Gucci than Ford. Ask truck people about the 2004 F-150. If you know any truck people. :P
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: No one is too big to fail - Disney

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

Bailouts by the federal government aren't administered to cater to niche markets lmao.
..What mirror universe?
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Re: No one is too big to fail - Disney

Post by TGLS »

Well, I suppose when leftists are espousing their faith in markets and rightists are disputing this it really shows the world's gone upside down.
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GreyICE
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Re: No one is too big to fail - Disney

Post by GreyICE »

TGLS wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:35 pm Well, I suppose when leftists are espousing their faith in markets and rightists are disputing this it really shows the world's gone upside down.
I do believe I've said the position I'm closest to politically is Libertarian Socialist. Which is outside the left-right spectrum of American politics. It's not really that I have faith in markets as an absolute, simply that I believe that the mechanism of corporations responding efficiently to demand works when it is allowed to work - and I believe that's the assertion Adam Smith made in Wealth of Nations, and has remained true on forward.

I actually believe that current corporations are unnaturally large and inefficient. Our system of venture capitalism, stock markets, bankers, tax incentives, bailouts, rebates, and tax assistance has allowed large corporations to disproportionately reap the benefits, and grow far larger than they naturally would. Allowed to fail, they naturally would never grow this big, this messy. Look how Amazon still pays no taxes, leveraging infinite venture capitalism funding and long lines of credit into infinite tax breaks. They grew this big not because of supply and demand, but because the system is set up to favor megacorporations, and they pulled every lever they could to become the biggest megacorp as fast as possible.

Since I view big corporations as just as dangerous to personal freedom as big government (if not more so), you can see why I find this particularly despicable.

----------------------------------------------------

On the other hand there is a "right-wing" ideology that supports strong, national corporations protected and supported by the government, and which in turn support the government materially and politically. The creator of the ideology even said it might be called "corporatism" had he not chosen the other term, because it was the merger of state and corporate power.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: No one is too big to fail - Disney

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

TGLS wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:35 pm Well, I suppose when leftists are espousing their faith in markets and rightists are disputing this it really shows the world's gone upside down.
What are you referring to?
..What mirror universe?
Darth Wedgius
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Re: No one is too big to fail - Disney

Post by Darth Wedgius »

I have no strong objections objection to what GreyICE just said. Corporations can have more efficiencies of scale, which couldmean greater wealth overall, but it doesn't mean the average person will likely benefit from it.

And I have a modest correction in that Amazon paid no federal income tax, but that doesn't mean they paid no taxes.

Taking away the deduction for stock-based compensation to executives might be a big one. A lot people see the super-rich as having a lot of money. Understandably. :) But often they have a lot of wealth, with a lot of that in stocks. Removing or greatly reducing that deduction might help.

If you'll excuse me, having agreed with GreyICE a lot I've coincidentally developed a tremendous headache.
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Re: No one is too big to fail - Disney

Post by clearspira »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWf74YVR81o

28K employees going at Disney.
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