VOY - Collective

[GreyICE]

wait what

You haven't read it? um. look. I get the point you were trying to make.... maybe make it about a character in a story you've read, though?

You're absolutely right that there's a problem in superhero comics when it comes to writing supporting characters, especially when they're women. and usually when a character is unceremoniously killed off shortly after being introduced, the writer hasn't put in the work to make them fully fleshed out in the short time they had. But like... you seemed to indicate up at the top that you were familiar with this character in particular, and it makes the whole post seem like it's coming from someone who has read the issue in question.

I don't think you're responsible for tracking down a copy, even if you have read it in the past and are going off an old memory, but I do think establishing whether you've read it or not before going into a critique is important for intellectual honesty.

Also, the worst Green Lantern? I thought Hal Jordan was Parallax when this happened

Side note:

Wildlife Ranger.

This made me laugh, I know it's just an example of a job that's serious, but doesn't often give the character much authority... but I just can't help but thinking "Oh, yeah, that tired old trope of wildlife ranger girlfriends in comic books. When are writers going to realize how cliche it is for the superhero's girlfriend to be a wildlife ranger? I'm just sick of all these wildlife rangers in comics!"

For real, this isn't me trying to say you're wrong in any way, I just can't think of a single comic book character who's a wildlife ranger and it got my wires crossed. Thank you for this gift.

To be clear, I have read it. I don't remember much, I remember being annoyed by the usual tits, and the refrigerator, and the fact there was no standout personality traits there. A decade plays merry hell with your memory of mediocrity. I have a friend I know probably still has it, but due to COVID there's no way I'm going to his place, and same with my local store. I might just sail the high seas for it, since you're calling me out, but that really seems excessive for an awful comic. She was 100% in the "goddamn superhero girlfriend" blob. Green Lantern is not on my regular pull list, and I read it solely due to the entire kerfuffle.

You can generally tell how invested I am by how much I care when they fuck something over. In this case, I don't read Green Lantern, any time I do it annoys me, I've never been handed a storyline I enjoyed, and I read this solely because it got attention. Green Lantern being fucked over doesn't make me angry because I couldn't care less about the characters. Now go after Cassandra Cain, and... eh, she couldn't get much worse, but man they ground my gears there.

As for the job, I can almost guarantee it was one of the stupid tropes that irritate me. You can throw in some weird police position like Forensics "whatever they watched on Law and Order" on the list. And to be clear, wildlife ranger is just me pulling that general family out of a hat. It's all this very tight description cluster. I could launch into why it's super convenient for both the plot and the lady in question having no character beyond a cardboard cutout.

[Freeverse]

To be clear, I have read it.

Ok. Hopefully you understand why I wasn't sure.

I don't read Green Lantern, any time I do it annoys me, I've never been handed a storyline I enjoyed, and I read this solely because it got attention.

I have some recommendations that have been on my "to-read" list for ages. The only one I've gotten around to was Willworld, which I enjoyed, but I don't know if it even qualifies as a Green Lantern story since it's so out there. OH! actually, I really liked the Green Lantern/Green Arrow story, because it's essentially just Ollie dunking on Hal for an entire issue and then an absolutely bonkers road trip where they fight literal harpies and Sinestro's evil twin sister, SINESTRA. Also, one of the Guardians of Oa was hanging out with them in human form. As you do. Obviously, I'm into The Weird Stuff (TM).

I quite liked the CG animated series, which seemed to understand that Hal is a very boring character and therefore focused more on the rest of the cast. Ron Perlman got to play Sinestro before he went supervillain. That was cool.

As for the job, I can almost guarantee it was one of the stupid tropes that irritate me. You can throw in some weird police position like Forensics "whatever they watched on Law and Order" on the list. And to be clear, wildlife ranger is just me pulling that general family out of a hat. It's all this very tight description cluster. I could launch into why it's super convenient for both the plot and the lady in question having no character beyond a cardboard cutout.

I only mentioned it because it tickled me. Also, she's a photographer. I went ahead and found a digital copy, it wasn't hard. Again, I don't think it's necessary, but I'm a weirdo and wanted to check for myself.

Though, I will say, I think the job itself isn't a trope, I think it's that certain jobs fit in with the trope of "love interest has their own life, but we don't need to see any of it because they only exist for the hero" and actually, I think it could be any job really, it's just that writers tend to stick to certain types of job because if the hero's girlfriend were the president of a pharmaceutical company and we never saw her in any board meetings, it would draw attention to the real problem, which is that we so often don't get to see the love interest's life outside of their attachment to the hero.

I mean, Peter Parker was a photographer, was that just a trope to make him Mary Jane's love interest? No, because we actually got to see him at work. If that kind of effort were put into portraying our love interest, it really wouldn't matter what their job was.

[GreyICE]

Though, I will say, I think the job itself isn't a trope, I think it's that certain jobs fit in with the trope of "love interest has their own life, but we don't need to see any of it because they only exist for the hero" and actually, I think it could be any job really, it's just that writers tend to stick to certain types of job because if the hero's girlfriend were the president of a pharmaceutical company and we never saw her in any board meetings, it would draw attention to the real problem, which is that we so often don't get to see the love interest's life outside of their attachment to the hero.

I mean, Peter Parker was a photographer, was that just a trope to make him Mary Jane's love interest? No, because we actually got to see him at work. If that kind of effort were put into portraying our love interest, it really wouldn't matter what their job was.

Oh god, photographer, yep, right next to reporter. Yes, the real problem is that the woman only exists as a cardboard prop for the male character. Those careers are all convenient - she can drop whatever she's doing at any time to go do what boyfriend needs her to do, she'll never have a social life or connections from work, she'll always be dragged along.

It's not about panel space and "effort portraying", to be clear. There's about four pages in Sandman depicting a character, an immortal who meets Dream every 100 years at a bar. It's only a small handful of panels. Guarantee you less than the Green Lantern comic spent highlighting her breasts (I know 90s comics). You never meet a lover of his, never see the smallest bit of his life outside the bar. Just a series of meetings.

And yet these describe a person, an arc, motivations, feelings, desires, love, despair. Why? Because you get a sense they're all there. That the author sketched out this man's life, and that you're seeing the tiniest window into it. Does that happen with Alex? Guarantee you not. She's where the plot wants her to be. She's doing what the plot wants her to do. She reacts as the plot wants her to react.

To be clear: the problem is shit writing. I'm going to actually dig this garbage up and review it.

[GreyICE]

To be clear, I have read it.

Ok. Hopefully you understand why I wasn't sure.

Oh good god, I went and read it. I don't know how you possibly guessed I didn't read it, I was right about everything except that maybe I gave it too much credit. This is one of the trashiest pieces of shit I've ever had the displeasure to read, it's like the epitome of everything wrong with 90s comics.

I assume when I read it I was either more used to this, or my spinal cord crawled out from between my vertebrae and choked my brain stem until I forgot all this shit out of self-preservation.

Expect a fucking review. Think Chuck's Lost World, but with more swearing. I've seen junkies taking opioid shits that were more artistic than this.

[Freeverse]

It's not about panel space and "effort portraying", to be clear. There's about four pages in Sandman depicting a character, an immortal who meets Dream every 100 years at a bar. It's only a small handful of panels. Guarantee you less than the Green Lantern comic spent highlighting her breasts (I know 90s comics). You never meet a lover of his, never see the smallest bit of his life outside the bar. Just a series of meetings.

And yet these describe a person, an arc, motivations, feelings, desires, love, despair. Why? Because you get a sense they're all there. That the author sketched out this man's life, and that you're seeing the tiniest window into it. Does that happen with Alex? Guarantee you not. She's where the plot wants her to be. She's doing what the plot wants her to do. She reacts as the plot wants her to react.

This is actually exactly what I meant.

I never meant to imply that simply granting more panels to a character will automatically make them more compelling. But what panels you do give to a character, should say something about that character.

And that can be done for any character. Alex Dewitt could be an amazing character. There's nothing about her that makes it impossible to write her in a compelling way, it's just that they didn't. I brought up Peter Parker, because the notion that "she's a photographer" is part of the reason she's not an interesting character, seems quite silly to me. I guess a better comparison would be Lois Lane, who has actually never been boring... Well, ok, she's kind of a lamp in the Snyder movies. But even in the cartoons back in the 40s, she was a cool character, far more active than most women in kids shows of the time. and yeah, she was kind of an awful person in the comics for a while what with trying to trick superman into marrying her which is what a rapist would do........... but, hey, it's not boring!

Alex Dewitt is not an interesting character because they just didn't write her to be that interesting. And that's probably because the creators of this story just weren't all that interested in showing us what makes her tick, why she's the way she is, what's going on in her life, or any of that. They wanted a likable character that Kyle could care about, who would push him to be a better person and also tell him who the Green Lantern is? am I reading that right...?

uh... anyway, you can't create the sense in your reader that a character has a life and goals and struggles and passions... if you don't give them any. And that takes work, which usually involves some amount of effort. That's all I was saying.

Oh good god, I went and read it. I don't know how you possibly guessed I didn't read it, I was right about everything except that maybe I gave it too much credit.

Well, your examples were very broad, and not specific to the story or character in question. Combine that with the phrasing below:

Is Alex any more than some subset of the above? I'm not going to locate, purchase, and read some decade old travesty [...] but I'm pretty sure yes, yes she is.

It came off like you hadn't read this particular example of the thing you were criticizing, just that you've seen the pattern elsewhere.

I didn't see anything of the slut shaming you indicated to establish her as NLOG (not like other girls), and she doesn't seem to be the quirky type, either. Unless you count putting up with Kyle's bullshit as a quirky personality trait. But yeah, it's a common pattern, and I could believe that you had simply predicted the type of character she is because you've read other comics before. My misunderstanding was 100% based on reading your post, since I myself had never seen anything but the page with the fridge before today, so your own words were all I was going by.

And honestly? It's fine. Nothing that needs to be preserved in the annals of comics history, but I do actually like some bits of it here and there. I think it sucks that Alex is basically doing all of the emotional labor for the both of them and that arrangement is seen as a given, and it's super weird that they get back together so easily after it was established that they broke up a week prior to the story. But she does have some personality, and I surprisingly like the art, which is rare for this period of superhero comics. I've also always liked the idea of an artist with a power ring, and in fact the idea that your power was based on your imagination was the main thing I liked about Green Lanterns, but my first exposure to GL was the 90s superman cartoon.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over someone trashing it, but before the fridge moment I probably wouldn't be mad about reading it as a time-waster. Damning with faint praise, I know, but that's just where I'm at. Also, I feel like there's an impulse to judge it more harshly in hindsight due to the fridging, and I try not to let those sorts of impulses sway me. There's an argument to be made that the fate of Alex does harm to the story leading up to it, and I would even agree to that, but when you approach it as an ongoing story, you can judge both the story as it stands and the story as a collection. And as it stands, the first issue at least, it's fine. Not good, not bad, just sorta OK. This sure is a comic book I'm reading.

[GreyICE]

They managed to fit the slut shaming in, Issue 52 when she smacks Kyle. She’s not a slut, he can’t make a green image of her in a risqué bathing suit when they’re all alone, even if they are adults who regularly have sex. I guess they didn’t manage to fit in a “not like other girls” because we got literally no other characters except 4 villains, a hobo, the world’s dumbest evil government agent and of course Captain Mullet. I was trying to block out the incredible Mulletman.

They didn’t make her quirky. Oh no. She’s too generic to even get a quirk. Oh you’ve inspired me, I’m going to review this torturous garbage.

[Freeverse]

They managed to fit the slut shaming in, Issue 52 when she smacks Kyle. She’s not a slut, he can’t make a green image of her in a risqué bathing suit when they’re all alone, even if they are adults who regularly have sex. I guess they didn’t manage to fit in a “not like other girls” because we got literally no other characters except 4 villains, a hobo, the world’s dumbest evil government agent and of course Captain Mullet. I was trying to block out the incredible Mulletman.

They didn’t make her quirky. Oh no. She’s too generic to even get a quirk. Oh you’ve inspired me, I’m going to review this torturous garbage.

I read that part, actually. I was kind of going piecemeal through the issues to get a sense of her character, and I would say that bit was more of a consent issue. It's like drawing erotic art of someone without permission. I did think she was being abusive by hitting him, not that I think the writers even considered that interpretation... and yeah, not surprised there were no other women.

I will say, though, that I'm glad you've got the passion to do something creative with your hatred of the story! I find it pretty average, but new critique is a net good in my book.

[GreyICE]

They managed to fit the slut shaming in, Issue 52 when she smacks Kyle. She’s not a slut, he can’t make a green image of her in a risqué bathing suit when they’re all alone, even if they are adults who regularly have sex. I guess they didn’t manage to fit in a “not like other girls” because we got literally no other characters except 4 villains, a hobo, the world’s dumbest evil government agent and of course Captain Mullet. I was trying to block out the incredible Mulletman.

They didn’t make her quirky. Oh no. She’s too generic to even get a quirk. Oh you’ve inspired me, I’m going to review this torturous garbage.

I read that part, actually. I was kind of going piecemeal through the issues to get a sense of her character, and I would say that bit was more of a consent issue. It's like drawing erotic art of someone without permission. I did think she was being abusive by hitting him, not that I think the writers even considered that interpretation... and yeah, not surprised there were no other women.

I will say, though, that I'm glad you've got the passion to do something creative with your hatred of the story! I find it pretty average, but new critique is a net good in my book.

But they regularly have consensual sex, and they’re all alone on a private beach. My wife would laugh and tell me to do a green speedo. Or maybe something else based on the mood. Alex is definitely not shown to have sexual hangups or problems wearing very little. She answers the door half naked in issue 51, before she knows it’s Kyle. So she’ll open her door half naked, but a green bikini IMAGE makes her angry?

The hitting was weird, but later that same issue Kyle will shrug off blows from a villain who can trade blows with Superman. So either she is actually the Hulk in disguise, or Kyle would barely notice her hardest blow. Or, in reality, I just put more thought into it than the writer did.

[Freeverse]

[/quote]

But they regularly have consensual sex, and they’re all alone on a private beach. My wife would laugh and tell me to do a green speedo. Or maybe something else based on the mood. Alex is definitely not shown to have sexual hangups or problems wearing very little. She answers the door half naked in issue 51, before she knows it’s Kyle. So she’ll open her door half naked, but a green bikini IMAGE makes her angry?

Ok, so, upon even minor consideration I realized that her actual problem was probably more like she was annoyed that he wasn't taking the testing of his powers seriously, and I was actually inserting the consent issue based on what would make a real person mad.

BUT, since I already spent time thinking about it, I think it's important to remember that yes in one context is not yes in every context. Anyone in a relationship is well within their rights to say "no" even to things that other couples take for granted. I'm glad you and your wife have a good relationship, but just remember that other couples are going to have different boundaries from you... though, yeah, it looks like the comic was just being inconsistent.

The hitting was weird, but later that same issue Kyle will shrug off blows from a villain who can trade blows with Superman. So either she is actually the Hulk in disguise, or Kyle would barely notice her hardest blow. Or, in reality, I just put more thought into it than the writer did.

Doesn't really matter how tough he is. Yeah, he's not likely to get a concussion, but ineffective abuse is still abusive. you're supposed to be able to trust your partner, and if they betray that trust, even if it doesn't cause physical pain, it can have an emotional effect. I don't see any of this coming up in this comic, of course, but you know... I've been told a version of what you're saying applies to me because I'm big and resilient.

[GreyICE]

Okay, but most sane people will agree that, for instance, lightly smacking your partner on the arm isn’t “abuse”.

It’s not a matter of human durability. Mongul can punch skyscrapers out of existence. Getting punched by him is like having an Abrams fall on you. If you can tank a punch from him, anything a human does to you is an affectionate pat.