DIS - The Red Angel

[Link8909]

I like Michael but I feel like someone badly misjudged what sort of character she is. She's interesting but she's interesting when she's playing off other more emotive characters like Tilly, Lorca, and even Saru to an extent. She's the Spock and Spock is great but Spock requires Kirk and McCoy to play off of.

Making her SPACE JESUS in Season 2 doesn't help and I think it's the same problem that will exist in Season 3.

Just...let us enjoy the fucking show. You don't need to sell her to us, we're already watching.

Indeed, I really like the dynamic between Michael and Spock, and their interactions to remind me of those between Spock and Doctor McCoy.

I'm also concerned about Season 3, not whether her roll in the story will be down played or not, but whether the hate towards her will continue in spite of the new direction, and honestly I don't see people stopping about complaining about her, even if she is just standing there doing nothing I see peoples jimmies being rustled over such a simple thing.

[clearspira]

I like Michael but I feel like someone badly misjudged what sort of character she is. She's interesting but she's interesting when she's playing off other more emotive characters like Tilly, Lorca, and even Saru to an extent. She's the Spock and Spock is great but Spock requires Kirk and McCoy to play off of.

Making her SPACE JESUS in Season 2 doesn't help and I think it's the same problem that will exist in Season 3.

Just...let us enjoy the fucking show. You don't need to sell her to us, we're already watching.

Indeed, I really like the dynamic between Michael and Spock, and their interactions to remind me of those between Spock and Doctor McCoy.

I'm also concerned about Season 3, not whether her roll in the story will be down played or not, but whether the hate towards her will continue in spite of the new direction, and honestly I don't see people stopping about complaining about her, even if she is just standing there doing nothing I see peoples jimmies being rustled over such a simple thing.

I don't watch STD due to it being awful, but I gotta say, if her new direction is indeed Space Jesus, that isn't going to entice people like me over. I will give you my opinion as someone who watches a lot of anti-Trek media these days: STD was dead on arrival and every attempt to apply the paddles has just created even more problems. Spock is a good example. You like her interactions with him, we are just reminded of how canon breaking this shit is by having her be related to him in the first place. And the laughable thing is, if they had made her Sybok instead of wanting to shoehorn in yet another Mary Sue into our sci-fi, you could actually have done something with this. Space Jesus - Sha Ka Ree. It writes itself.

[CharlesPhipps]

I don't even think Michael is a Mary Sue. Her character is certainly flawed in obvious and interesting ways. There's a penumbra before being a self-insert Ms. Perfect everything awesome character and a character that is just overexposed.

One is just a bad character while the other is something that can just be annoying while still enjoyable.

I'm hoping Michael is not going to be THE PERSON WHO RE-BUILDS THE FEDERATION IN THE 29TH CENTURY but sadly, every scene we see of season 3 is of Michael. I like Michael, again, I'm one of the DEFENDERS of Discovery. It's nowhere near the bottom of Trek for me.

But did we really need her to become Dylan Hunt now?

[clearspira]

I don't even think Michael is a Mary Sue. Her character is certainly flawed in obvious and interesting ways. There's a penumbra before being a self-insert Ms. Perfect everything awesome character and a character that is just overexposed.

One is just a bad character while the other is something that can just be annoying while still enjoyable.

I'm hoping Michael is not going to be THE PERSON WHO RE-BUILDS THE FEDERATION IN THE 29TH CENTURY but sadly, every scene we see of season 3 is of Michael. I like Michael, again, I'm one of the DEFENDERS of Discovery. It's nowhere near the bottom of Trek for me.

But did we really need her to become Dylan Hunt now?

Dylan Hunt is a fantastic way to put it. As you say, we don't know if she will be yet, but it isn't unlikely.

Funny thing is, despite Andromeda's problems, rebuilding the Commonwealth - and then it collapsing again due to the fact that trying to bring back a 300 year old political system based on freedom and democracy to people used to anything but would be insanely difficult - is something that spans five seasons. Andromeda fleshed this idea out as best as it could.
Any resolution to the ''rebuilding the Federation'' plot is going to require more than a season to resolve to any satisfaction unless technobabble is involved. And maybe it will get a season 4, but I would say that the focus on PIC and Lower Decks of late is not a good sign.

[Link8909]

I don't even think Michael is a Mary Sue. Her character is certainly flawed in obvious and interesting ways. There's a penumbra before being a self-insert Ms. Perfect everything awesome character and a character that is just overexposed.

One is just a bad character while the other is something that can just be annoying while still enjoyable.

I'm hoping Michael is not going to be THE PERSON WHO RE-BUILDS THE FEDERATION IN THE 29TH CENTURY but sadly, every scene we see of season 3 is of Michael. I like Michael, again, I'm one of the DEFENDERS of Discovery. It's nowhere near the bottom of Trek for me.

But did we really need her to become Dylan Hunt now?

Indeed, I think using the term Mary Sue to describe a character in fiction is a poor way to be critical, as the term has become very broad in it's description and doesn't actually say any of the issues with that character.

For me personally, Michael is as you say overexposed, she carries far to many story lines than any main character should, and I feel that this will be rectified in Season 3, the rift between her and Spock has been resolved, she's no longer a pariah in Starfleet, she's not in a relationship with Ash Tyler, she does the safe the galaxy thing at the end of Season 2, the only real personal story for her to resolve is reuniting with her Mother.

Even if the story is now rebuilding the Federation, simple having her help is not the same as the previous story lines where it was about her, you can have a character be prominent in a story without the story being all about them like in The Original Series with Captain Kirk.

As for this episode itself, this was more set up and character moments, and really felt like the first of a two parter, good stuff mind you, the funeral was really nice, I like that we see them building the "trap" in the Shuttle Bay, I really like all the character moments like Michael and Spock in the Gymnasium and Doctor Culber's therapy session with Admiral Cornwell, and Empress Georgiou's attempt to "help" both Stamets and Culber was funny.

[clearspira]

I don't even think Michael is a Mary Sue. Her character is certainly flawed in obvious and interesting ways. There's a penumbra before being a self-insert Ms. Perfect everything awesome character and a character that is just overexposed.

One is just a bad character while the other is something that can just be annoying while still enjoyable.

I'm hoping Michael is not going to be THE PERSON WHO RE-BUILDS THE FEDERATION IN THE 29TH CENTURY but sadly, every scene we see of season 3 is of Michael. I like Michael, again, I'm one of the DEFENDERS of Discovery. It's nowhere near the bottom of Trek for me.

But did we really need her to become Dylan Hunt now?

Indeed, I think using the term Mary Sue to describe a character in fiction is a poor way to be critical, as the term has become very broad in it's description and doesn't actually say any of the issues with that character.

For me personally, Michael is as you say overexposed, she carries far to many story lines than any main character should, and I feel that this will be rectified in Season 3, the rift between her and Spock has been resolved, she's no longer a pariah in Starfleet, she's not in a relationship with Ash Tyler, she does the safe the galaxy thing at the end of Season 2, the only real personal story for her to resolve is reuniting with her Mother.

Even if the story is now rebuilding the Federation, simple having her help is not the same as the previous story lines where it was about her, you can have a character be prominent in a story without the story being all about them like in The Original Series with Captain Kirk.

As for this episode itself, this was more set up and character moments, and really felt like the first of a two parter, good stuff mind you, the funeral was really nice, I like that we see them building the "trap" in the Shuttle Bay, I really like all the character moments like Michael and Spock in the Gymnasium and Doctor Culber's therapy session with Admiral Cornwell, and Empress Georgiou's attempt to "help" both Stamets and Culber was funny.

Is the term Mary Sue overused? Yes, I'll take that.
However, given how we are in the franchise that invented the term, I think that it is a fair claim to levy at Burnham. Super competent, excessively gifted in a wide variety of skills, an easily forgiven horrible past, related to a fan-favourite legacy character, the show revolving around her. Sorry but go ahead; name me another character in Star Trek history that hits all of these notes. She is a Mary Sue, not to Rey's level, but in the same league definitely.

Also, I don't know why you think that this will be rectified in season 3. History does not support that.

[clearspira]

I don't even think Michael is a Mary Sue. Her character is certainly flawed in obvious and interesting ways. There's a penumbra before being a self-insert Ms. Perfect everything awesome character and a character that is just overexposed.

One is just a bad character while the other is something that can just be annoying while still enjoyable.

I'm hoping Michael is not going to be THE PERSON WHO RE-BUILDS THE FEDERATION IN THE 29TH CENTURY but sadly, every scene we see of season 3 is of Michael. I like Michael, again, I'm one of the DEFENDERS of Discovery. It's nowhere near the bottom of Trek for me.

But did we really need her to become Dylan Hunt now?

Indeed, I think using the term Mary Sue to describe a character in fiction is a poor way to be critical, as the term has become very broad in it's description and doesn't actually say any of the issues with that character.

For me personally, Michael is as you say overexposed, she carries far to many story lines than any main character should, and I feel that this will be rectified in Season 3, the rift between her and Spock has been resolved, she's no longer a pariah in Starfleet, she's not in a relationship with Ash Tyler, she does the safe the galaxy thing at the end of Season 2, the only real personal story for her to resolve is reuniting with her Mother.

Even if the story is now rebuilding the Federation, simple having her help is not the same as the previous story lines where it was about her, you can have a character be prominent in a story without the story being all about them like in The Original Series with Captain Kirk.

As for this episode itself, this was more set up and character moments, and really felt like the first of a two parter, good stuff mind you, the funeral was really nice, I like that we see them building the "trap" in the Shuttle Bay, I really like all the character moments like Michael and Spock in the Gymnasium and Doctor Culber's therapy session with Admiral Cornwell, and Empress Georgiou's attempt to "help" both Stamets and Culber was funny.

Is the term Mary Sue overused? Yes, I'll take that.
However, given how we are in the franchise that invented the term, I think that it is a fair claim to levy at Burnham. Super competent, excessively gifted in a wide variety of skills, an easily forgiven horrible past, related to a fan-favourite legacy character, the show revolving around her. Sorry but go ahead; name me another character in Star Trek history that hits all of these notes. She is a Mary Sue, not to Rey's level, but in the same league definitely.

Also, I don't know why you think that this will be rectified in season 3. History does not support that.

BTW, just for fun, I went to Wiki and found the complete text of Lt Mary Sue. I will admit that I laughed my ass off at the part where Lt Mary Sue comes out as half Vulcan.

"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.

"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?" "Captain! I am not that kind of girl!" "You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us." Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?" "The Captain told me to." "Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies, Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday on the Enterprise.

[Link8909]

Is the term Mary Sue overused? Yes, I'll take that.
However, given how we are in the franchise that invented the term, I think that it is a fair claim to levy at Burnham. Super competent, excessively gifted in a wide variety of skills, an easily forgiven horrible past, related to a fan-favourite legacy character, the show revolving around her. Sorry but go ahead; name me another character in Star Trek history that hits all of these notes. She is a Mary Sue, not to Rey's level, but in the same league definitely.

Also, I don't know why you think that this will be rectified in season 3. History does not support that.

Again, I don't use the term for any character because it's definition has become very broad and doesn't really talk about the issues with that character, and for me personally some of the things you've listed aren't issues to me.

Super competent, excessively gifted in a wide variety of skills is not a problem, I'd say nearly every character in Star Trek is like this, my problem is then they're either this with no training or experience and just are that good with no explanation like with Wesley Crusher, or we are constantly told their this but everything we are shown with them says the contrary like with Jonathan Archer, Michael Burnham doesn't fit this because her talents are explained, she was fascinated with science at an early age, she went to the Vulcan Science Academy, and was in Starfleet for seven years, honestly I'd like to see characters being capable and smart.

Personally I wouldn't say she was easily forgiven for her "horrible past", for one, their are plenty of other characters who have done worst with no consequences, Captain Janeway with allying with the Borg and giving them Bio-Weapons and Captain Sisko with poisoning Solosos III to goad Eddington just to name two, also this seemed like one of the few times in the franchise someone was actually court martialed and convicted for, and more importantly, the series is deliberately framing her actions as the worst mistake of her life, a decision that she regrets, and spent a year regretting and paying for, she was forgiving because when Starfleet was prepared to do worse, she convinced them not to and found another way.

While I do like the dynamic between Michael and both Sarak and Spock, I do agree that this was an unnecessary addition, this dynamic could have still been accomplished if she was just a student of Sarak, but I'm not as bothered by this because what I saw was really interesting, expanding on Sarak's fascination with humanity and Spock's early years.

But I do agree that Michael carries far to much of the series than any main character should, I was ok with the war as it was interesting, but Season 2 doubled down and it was do much.

As for why I think there will be a change in Season 3, honestly I don't have much evidence other than that based on Season 2 the franchise is willing to change based on feedback, and just my general positive outlook, I no it's not much, but I'd rather be happy than miserable, and even with the many issue's I do have with Star Trek Discovery, it has done a lot more good than bad for me personally.

[Link8909]

BTW, just for fun, I went to Wiki and found the complete text of Lt Mary Sue. I will admit that I laughed my ass off at the part where Lt Mary Sue comes out as half Vulcan.

"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.

"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?" "Captain! I am not that kind of girl!" "You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us." Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?" "The Captain told me to." "Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies, Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday on the Enterprise.

Honestly, this is was a Mary Sue is, it's a wish fulfillment fan made character, and that's not a bad thing for fans to write themselves into their favorite franchise, the picture I use here is my own fan character from Star Trek Online, and I tried to make this character look as much like myself in real life, and I think it's bad that a character that was written for fun and not to be taken seriously is now been used as a term for "badly written female characters" by people that quite frankly don't take the time to actually talk about the pros and cons with those characters.

[Link8909]

Also on this subject, did you know the alien with the grabby back head things that held onto the artifact in Star Trek Beyond was called Sue, also while she died in that film it was the Kelvin Timeline, she could still be in the Prime Timeline, maybe could show up in Strange New Worlds... just saying.