DIS - The Red Angel

[Worffan101]

If there was supposed to be some anti-racist lesson in the MU episodes, Burnham quickly forgot it. Her plan to end the war was to put bombs under Space Berlin and then put Space Joachim Peiper in charge of holding the trigger on behalf of Space America. Not only is that paternalistically racist, it's also stupid.

You are never, ever going to convince me otherwise. I watched season 1, I am not going to be convinced by some guy on the Internet that my lying eyes didn't see what I saw.

But that's the thing, innit? This is a public forum. Convincing you would be a nice bonus. At least getting you to brush up on your argumentation and presentation of evidence would be agreeable, since I'd prefer if each viewpoint was represented as sincerely and completely as possible, so that the intrinsic merits of each position could shine through. But the real prize is convincing the audience.

I don't expect to convince even one single person from this petty dispute. I'm just stating my position. If people want to watch this awful show, they will. If they like it, they like it. I hate it, and always will.

[CharlesPhipps]

Not to give you advice or anything but it seems like an awful lot of effort to show up in threads about a show you loathe to share that you hate it.

Yes, but Burnham is an idiot with mommy issues. Her judgement is, even in universe, rather impaired.

On this we agree. I don't actually see any objective reason to think Lorca and Georgiou are anything other than horrific parodies of the people she knows (or thinks she knows). Then again, I admit I headcanon that Mirror Lorca is actually a really talented actor and doing a 80% decent job of impersonating his doppelganger.

Thus invalidating Spock's criticism of a savage being unable to imitate a civilized man.

[Worffan101]

I think it's important to share my dislike. (I hated the lazy way they dealt with Mirror Lorca, too) Also, it's kinda cathartic to just rage at this show that I despise.

[CharlesPhipps]

I think it's important to share my dislike. (I hated the lazy way they dealt with Mirror Lorca, too) Also, it's kinda cathartic to just rage at this show that I despise.

Yeah, well you're harshing a lot of fans buzz, is all I'm saying.

[Worffan101]

I think it's important to share my dislike. (I hated the lazy way they dealt with Mirror Lorca, too) Also, it's kinda cathartic to just rage at this show that I despise.

Yeah, well you're harshing a lot of fans buzz, is all I'm saying.

People fanning Kurtzman's ego and praising STD for its "story" harshes my buzz.

[CrashGordon94]

BTW, just for fun, I went to Wiki and found the complete text of Lt Mary Sue. I will admit that I laughed my ass off at the part where Lt Mary Sue comes out as half Vulcan.

"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.

"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?" "Captain! I am not that kind of girl!" "You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us." Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?" "The Captain told me to." "Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies, Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday on the Enterprise.

Honestly, this is was a Mary Sue is, it's a wish fulfillment fan made character, and that's not a bad thing for fans to write themselves into their favorite franchise, the picture I use here is my own fan character from Star Trek Online, and I tried to make this character look as much like myself in real life, and I think it's bad that a character that was written for fun and not to be taken seriously is now been used as a term for "badly written female characters" by people that quite frankly don't take the time to actually talk about the pros and cons with those characters.

I would like to mention that short story ("A Trekkie's Tale") was actually made as a parody of such stories by the author, who had seen a lot of them by then.

I think it's important to share my dislike. (I hated the lazy way they dealt with Mirror Lorca, too) Also, it's kinda cathartic to just rage at this show that I despise.

It's fair to share your views, but you should be willing to back things up and argue properly, otherwise it's a bit pointless.

[Worffan101]

It's fair to share your views, but you should be willing to back things up and argue properly, otherwise it's a bit pointless.

I've done plenty of backing things up. If you want to watch the show for yourself, watch it, formulate your own opinion.

[Dargaron]

Making unsubstantiated statements and appeals to poorly-fitting real-world crises is not "backing things up." You have in no way demonstrated that the showrunners intended to present the message you insist is so obvious, and the fact that CharlesPhipps, Link8909 and I all presented evidence against your interpretation that you cannot or will not address makes it clear that no, your interpretation is not obvious.

Hell, I'd even take issue with your unstated premise that violence against innocents is intrinsically wrong: every time a Borg Cube is destroyed, thousands of innocent sentient beings are killed in the process, whose only crime is being victimized by the Borg Collective. Yet I doubt you'd complain as strenuously against the ending of Best of Both Worlds where experimentation on a captured enemy (a war crime!) allows the Enterprise to destroy the cube threatening Earth.

[Worffan101]

Making unsubstantiated statements and appeals to poorly-fitting real-world crises is not "backing things up." You have in no way demonstrated that the showrunners intended to present the message you insist is so obvious, and the fact that CharlesPhipps and I both presented evidence against your interpretation that you cannot or will not address makes it clear that no, your interpretation is not obvious.

Hell, I'd even take issue with your unstated premise that violence against innocents is intrinsically wrong: every time a Borg Cube is destroyed, thousands of innocent sentient beings are killed in the process, whose only crime is being victimized by the Borg Collective. Yet I doubt you'd complain as strenuously against the ending of Best of Both Worlds where experimentation on a captured enemy (a war crime!) allows the Enterprise to destroy the cube threatening Earth.

As I have stated multiple times (which you seem to be ignoring), what Burnham convinced her genocidal bosses to do is tantamount to the US putting a thermonuclear city-buster bomb under Kabul after the invasion of Afghanistan, then giving the big red button to Ayman al-Zawahiri. Or putting a bunch of nukes under Berlin in 1946 and giving Joachim Peiper the detonator.

It is stupid, paternalistic, racist, and evil. If you can't see why doing such a thing is blatantly immoral and bigoted, I don't think that I can reason with you.

[Dargaron]

As I have stated multiple times (which you seem to be ignoring), what Burnham convinced her genocidal bosses to do is tantamount to the UK putting a thermonuclear city-buster bomb under Kabul after the invasion of Afghanistan, then giving the big red button to Ayman al-Zawahiri. Or putting a bunch of nukes under Berlin in 1946 and giving Joachim Peiper the detonator.

It is stupid, paternalistic, racist, and evil. If you can't see why doing such a thing is blatantly immoral and bigoted, I don't think that I can reason with you.

And I am stating that your analogy is fundamentally flawed. Afghanistan is not an existential threat to Britain, therefore such an action is unwarranted. The Klingon Empire has demonstrated itself an existential threat to the Federation, meaning the choice is between a threatened genocide and allowing actual genocide to take place.

Nor is planting an explosive in the capital of an already-defeated enemy the same as threatening the destruction of a major civilian centre in order to end ongoing genocidal hostilities.

Again, you simply state your premise without actually engaging. Calling the act paternalistic is particularly out of place: if anything, the Federation is treating the Klingon Empire like a mature Space-faring civilization, with all the responsibility that entails. The Empire decided to make an Appeal to Force, and now the shoe is on the other foot.