DIS - Through the Valley of the Shadow

[Riedquat]

Same here, as Chuck pointed out he might have a disease or genetic condition that isn't treatable and requires aid much like Geordi La Forge's Visor, my only thought as to why not something more advance is that they run the risk of breaking down or being damaged, thus a low-tech solution runs less risks, but even then that answer can be scrutinized.

I personally would just like to see the character get fleshed out so we know why he needs the chair to begin with, and I agree with Chuck that he should be given more screen time.

I'm generally a fan of low tech and find lots of high tech faintly (or rather less faintly) ludicrous, but this is definitely an exception. I'd possibly expect the low tech to be available as a backup, but on board a starship full of other people to help if it did go wrong (and by Trek standards the necessary technology doesn't seem all that advanced anyway, so would probably be pretty mature and reliable) it seems odd. If I was stuck with needing a wheelchair I'd take the exosuit the first chance I got unless it was 50/50 for it to fly apart taking me with it every time it was used.

[Thebestoftherest]

Same here, as Chuck pointed out he might have a disease or genetic condition that isn't treatable and requires aid much like Geordi La Forge's Visor, my only thought as to why not something more advance is that they run the risk of breaking down or being damaged, thus a low-tech solution runs less risks, but even then that answer can be scrutinized.

I personally would just like to see the character get fleshed out so we know why he needs the chair to begin with, and I agree with Chuck that he should be given more screen time.

I'm generally a fan of low tech and find lots of high tech faintly (or rather less faintly) ludicrous, but this is definitely an exception. I'd possibly expect the low tech to be available as a backup, but on board a starship full of other people to help if it did go wrong (and by Trek standards the necessary technology doesn't seem all that advanced anyway, so would probably be pretty mature and reliable) it seems odd. If I was stuck with needing a wheelchair I'd take the exosuit the first chance I got unless it was 50/50 for it to fly apart taking me with it every time it was used.

Have you seen Star Trek tech, the odds are 2 percent work, fifty percent fall apart fourty percent will try to strangle you with your own arms, and eight percent force you to river dance to death.

[cloudkitt]

This was a better episode, in that character scenes were allowed to breathe and have normal talking instead of just being an obstacle to the next quick-cut or Michael sobbing. I wasn't sure how I felt about not only showing Pike his future but straight-up telling him it was fated. I was not aware of the Internet's "ableism" narrative, but just...imagine what that would do to all your decision-making. I guess you could say if you knew it was certain there's nothing to do but what you do anyway, but still, they didn't tell him WHEN it would happen. So imagine constantly wondering if this was the day. That sounds like a worse torture than the actual result.

Another thing that always strikes me in this show is how...unprofessional Pike seemingly allows people to be. In this episode the example is Michael cutting him off to be petulant in the meeting but I'm not just picking on her, Saru, Stamets and others have all done it. I get that Starfleet is not made up of military rigidity as we know it, but I don't think you could have just completely cut off Picard or Janeway and dismissed their input out of hand without getting at least a "wtf?" Especially considering she didn't actually have anything substantive to add and was just in a snit.

[Link8909]

This was a better episode, in that character scenes were allowed to breathe and have normal talking instead of just being an obstacle to the next quick-cut or Michael sobbing. I wasn't sure how I felt about not only showing Pike his future but straight-up telling him it was fated. I was not aware of the Internet's "ableism" narrative, but just...imagine what that would do to all your decision-making. I guess you could say if you knew it was certain there's nothing to do but what you do anyway, but still, they didn't tell him WHEN it would happen. So imagine constantly wondering if this was the day. That sounds like a worse torture than the actual result.

Agreed, this is why I think Captain Pike is great in Star Trek Discovery, he saw this future but when given the choice to walk away from it, he chose to take the Time Crystal, sealing his fate but doing so to save countless lives, an incredibly brave and selfless act.

And in interviews I've seen, there going to expand on Captain Pike knowing his future in Strange New Worlds and how he copes with this knowledge, so I'm looking forward to seeing that play out.

I also really like the character moments in this episode as well, the Mess-Hall scene with all the secondary characters just hanging out, Chancellor L'Rell and Tyler getting closure with their son, Jett Reno and Doctor Culber sharing Wedding stories, and the interactions between Michael and Spock on their mission to the Section 31 ship, all this I really enjoyed.

[Link8909]

I'm generally a fan of low tech and find lots of high tech faintly (or rather less faintly) ludicrous, but this is definitely an exception. I'd possibly expect the low tech to be available as a backup, but on board a starship full of other people to help if it did go wrong (and by Trek standards the necessary technology doesn't seem all that advanced anyway, so would probably be pretty mature and reliable) it seems odd. If I was stuck with needing a wheelchair I'd take the exosuit the first chance I got unless it was 50/50 for it to fly apart taking me with it every time it was used.

Also thinking about it, it could be a personal choice, like maybe he prefers to wheel himself around, but that is only speculation as we don't know much about him, I do hope he came along with the rest of the crew into the future and that he gets more scenes.

[rickgriffin]

Oof, careful Chuck, even insinuating that having a disability might be less than ideal for some people is tantamount to calling for a eugenic cleansing. Doesn't matter how much you support disability aid, social programs, medicine, representation in the arts, know that people who are disabled can be perfectly healthy functional members of society to be treated with dignity, and other forms of support, even suggesting a disability is in any way less desirable than not having a disability is the exact same thing as saying people who are disabled are "undesirables", and you know where that slippery slope leads! It's been further backed up with things like "what if they found and eliminated the gay gene" as further proof that all disability is a social construct only and that medicine as a result is actually genocide.

Literally been told this to my face. This is despite the fact that when I'm told to "talk to disabled people" about 80% of them say that it's bullshit? I'm still not sure where it comes from other than disability advocacy think tanks, which makes me strongly suspect it's actually a lot of able-bodied rich people talking themselves out of supporting expensive medical research.

[Freeverse]

Oof, careful Chuck, even insinuating that having a disability might be less than ideal for some people is tantamount to calling for a eugenic cleansing. Doesn't matter how much you support disability aid, social programs, medicine, representation in the arts, know that people who are disabled can be perfectly healthy functional members of society to be treated with dignity, and other forms of support, even suggesting a disability is in any way less desirable than not having a disability is the exact same thing as saying people who are disabled are "undesirables", and you know where that slippery slope leads! It's been further backed up with things like "what if they found and eliminated the gay gene" as further proof that all disability is a social construct only and that medicine as a result is actually genocide.

Literally been told this to my face. This is despite the fact that when I'm told to "talk to disabled people" about 80% of them say that it's bullshit? I'm still not sure where it comes from other than disability advocacy think tanks, which makes me strongly suspect it's actually a lot of able-bodied rich people talking themselves out of supporting expensive medical research.

So, I do think that some of this is coming from a place of genuine concern, because there are very real ways in which disabilities are reinforced by society. There are certain things that you can't do due to your disability, and that's not really under the purview of society, but there are often things that go along with that which maybe shouldn't, or at least don't have to. For example. You might not be able to see the same range of colors as most people, but does that mean you can't be a painter? No, it doesn't, but I think a lot of people would say it means you can't be as good a painter as someone who sees the typical spectrum of colors. The truth is that you're neither a better nor worse painter regardless of your vision. You may need to adapt in ways a full-sighted person might not have to, but the way you are treated as an artist shouldn't be so directly tied to your vision. Even a fully blind person can paint a beautiful picture, and the way they would do that may be different in the details, but just like anyone else, the way they get to that point is hard work, talent, and determination.

Of course, going to the farthest extreme is unhelpful, because then you're just ignoring the voices of people who are actually affected by their disability, and that's just gross, especially if you claim to support them. It's also kind of insidious, because by claiming that it's entirely societal, you're not just ignoring people who might have more insight into what it's actually like to live with a certain disability, you're actually gaslighting some of them into believing this narrative, which can be really damaging when a lot of the kinds of adaptation that someone can do to live with their disability in a more helpful way comes from acceptance. There's often a lot of shame that comes with certain disabilities, and that shame comes from the way we treat disabled people, but replacing it with denial isn't going to help anyone.

But there's a reason people get riled up over statements about the viability of living with a disability. There was a very real attitude in the time of the original series that suggested "your life is over" i you were affected by certain disabilities. I can intellectualize the idea that in Pike's case there was some kind of space magic reason that he was trapped in a miserable state, barely able to go on living, but the fact of the matter is that the entire point of his disability in that episode was to make the case that his life was over, and that's maybe not a great take on disability. It was also used for shock value, which I'm not all that impressed by. But, the idea that someone's life can be no longer worth living because of an accident that leaves them disabled has been used to dismiss and ignore people for a long time, and some people are rightly put off by suggestions of a similar nature. Personally, I think the way this was handled in Discovery gives some more agency to Pike, which I feel improves the original story, but it doesn't erase the problem entirely, because no matter how much the Order of the Sacred Canon insist, a new story can't erase an old one, it can only give you a new context to look at it from.

As for the think tanks you mention... I don't think they're really trying to avoid spending money. At least, not in terms of how they advise others. Unfortunately, they often do spend money. And they come up with a lot of inane bullshit that ignores the wishes of the people they're trying to help. But they think they're helping anyway... Which I think is actually worse than doing nothing at all. I mean, for a great example of the kind of reckless garbage that comes from people with the intention to help, there's the fact that before the president of the united states of America was suggesting bleach might cure the corona virus, shitty moms thought that it might make their kids not be autistic anymore.

Also fuck me do I have a lot to say about this, it turns out. I should maybe have found an outlet for this discussion a bit sooner in my life, but hopefully I've cobbled my thoughts and feelings together in a way that reads alright to other people.

[Percysowner]

I think a huge part of the issue of Pike in TOS is that no one was able to foresee how far technology would come to help mitigate disability restrictions. In our own lifetime Steven Hawking was able to communicate even as his body failed him. He communicated using face movement. It is hard to believe that 300 years from now, technology wouldn't have found work arounds for Pike's limitations, if they didn't have a way to heal his injuries. Heck, they have a race that is telepathic in the Vulcans and the Federation could have asked that THEY send someone to facilitate communication with an honored and important Federation officer. But Roddenbury needed and wanted to reuse the footage from the original pilot and not having the means to help Pike was the way to fold it into the Star Trek universe.

Frankly, I always found it amusing that one of the points of the episode was that the Talosian invented a technology that allowed them to create any illusion they wanted and the society destroyed itself by living in dreams and memories. Then the Federation looks at that warning and says, "I know what we need a Holodeck" that does the exact same thing that destroyed the Talsions.

I guess we are just a superior species that wouldn't succumb to the siren call of living in fantasy.

[TGLS]

Nah, that'll be the reason why the federation collapses in Season 3.

[CharlesPhipps]

I dunno, even in the episode, Pike DOES end up living an entirely helpful life with the Talosians.

It's just that the Federation's technology is not sufficient at that time.