B5 - Ceremonies of Light and Dark

[Fianna]

https://sfdebris.com/videos/babylon5/b5s3e11.php

Something I feel worth bringing up is that, despite Babylon 5 seceding from Earth, and despite making a big deal about this separation, there's still a Season 4 ep that involves Clarke forbidding travel between Earth and B5 ... implying that, at this point in the series, people can still travel freely between the two, despite the whole insurrection thing. Which is ... weird.

[DanteC]

It's been years since I've seen it, but could it be that B5 is just declaring themselves independent rather than severing ties completely? It's still an incredibly important transport hub for goods and services.

[Taurian Patriot]

I'm sure B5 still dealt with civilian corporations and such after declaring independence. Clarke probably held back on prohibiting transport until he decided if the economic impact was worth it. And despite all the "purity of Earth" sentiment in his government, a direct pipeline to advanced alien technology and resources is probably too tempting to give up easily.

So, if this review isn't the last time we'll hear Harlan Ellison as a surly computer voice... does this mean there's a review of the "I Have No Mouth but I Must Scream" adventure game somewhere down the line, or did Ellison just have a weird habit of being cast in these roles?

[Madner Kami]

So, if this review isn't the last time we'll hear Harlan Ellison as a surly computer voice... does this mean there's a review of the "I Have No Mouth but I Must Scream" adventure game somewhere down the line, or did Ellison just have a weird habit of being cast in these roles?

According to the IMDB, he "appeared" on B5 three times. Once as the voice of Zooty in "Day of the Dead", once as the voice of the computer in this episode and once as a Psi Cop, in "The Face of the Enemy"...

[Beastro]

Something I feel worth bringing up is that, despite Babylon 5 seceding from Earth, and despite making a big deal about this separation, there's still a Season 4 ep that involves Clarke forbidding travel between Earth and B5 ... implying that, at this point in the series, people can still travel freely between the two, despite the whole insurrection thing. Which is ... weird.

Keep in mind B5 didn't continue with the civil war after succession. They minded their own business with the Shadow War and so Earth probably looked elsewhere after being driven off.

Such situations are not rare in complex, tumultuous times. Fancoist Spain and the Estado Novo were in similar binds as neutrals but were ultimately both in the pocket of Britain given how much their civil service was being bribed them.

[Kinky Vorlon]

So, if this review isn't the last time we'll hear Harlan Ellison as a surly computer voice... does this mean there's a review of the "I Have No Mouth but I Must Scream" adventure game somewhere down the line, or did Ellison just have a weird habit of being cast in these roles?

I sure hope so. I just finished playing the game for the first time (it's a few bucks on steam) and it's really good.

[Winter]

The villains plan in this episode has always bugged the crap out of me. So, they want to get rid of the Minbari and they say that they'll kill Delenn and kill so in such a way that it will look like Sheridan will get blamed for it. And to do that they... kidnap Delenn, hold her hostage and broadcast to the Minbari that they have her and warn Sheridan that they will kill her unless he agrees to their demands...

At the start they made it clear that they don't want the Minbari to direct their anger at them given how badly killing a Minbari religious leader went for humanity last time and yet they created a situation that if anything happens to Delenn it will be clear who's to blame for Delenn getting killed. This is like Lex Luthor trying to make peace with the Justice League by kidnapping all their loved ones and threatening to kill them if they don't do his bidding, I think you missed the point you were trying to make.

I still greatly enjoy this episode but the plan the villains have just bugs me because it honestly seems kinda self destructive.

[PerrySimm]

Even though the individual pieces in this ep are kind of clunky by themselves, assembled they reach a critical mass of good characterization, payoffs, and important moments for the future.

The Refa poisoning is definitely one of the top Londo moments, and the big Lennier reveal is framed at an odd moment of exhaustion, giving us a window into the true inner life of the buttoned-down monk.

And yeah, Harlan Ellison making a cameo, that's kind of icing on the cake. If anyone aboard could get along with that guy, it'd have to be Garibaldi... guess it's not happening!

[CharlesPhipps]

I still greatly enjoy this episode but the plan the villains have just bugs me because it honestly seems kinda self destructive.

I feel like a lot of the early issues with humans and Mimbari is the fact that it's not that humans were on the verge of losing the war or even that they were almost exterminated. It's that the Mimbari HUMILIATED them by tearing them apart like they were nothing. So the Earth has been trying to figure out a way to strike back even though it's an idiotic action and they should just back the fuck down.

Because pride is a helluva drug.

Ironically, the Warrior Caste is in the same boat because while they exterminated virtually the entirety of Earth's military and space force, they lost a lot more troops than they expected. Then they were forced to surrender.

[Madner Kami]

Ironically, the Warrior Caste is in the same boat because while they exterminated virtually the entirety of Earth's military and space force, they lost a lot more troops than they expected. Then they were forced to surrender.

Despite the technological and physiological superiority of the Minbari, it still strikes me as odd how they waged the war. They got themselves into a protracted ground war in an FTL-setting, which is bad enough to begin with once you apply critical thinking to it and on top of that, decided that every man, woman and children, no matter the age or physiscal constituence, is an enemy that needs to die. This gives humans the excuse not just for a "traditional" total war, but for a total war on an unprecedented scale. You thought the semi-indoctrinated and semi-pressed ganged child soldiers in Germany in 1945 were bad? Child-soldiers in Sierra Leone? You've seen nothing my dear, because you don't just wage a war against a couple million soldiers, you wage a war against several billions and almost all of them will not be frontline soldiers, but partisans behind your back. Germany got itself into exactly that situation during the invasion of the Soviet Union... You don't go out of that unscathed, especially not in a society with apparently low birth rates where a maximum of one third of your population is eligable to being a soldier...