Unpopular opinions/going against the grain of the conventional wisdom, let's talk about it

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Diversity's not a checklist lol.

Yes it is. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Well it is kinda Star Trek's game in a way. But ultimately I think it's more in line of "what can we do next" and not "are we satisfying our quota."

[Captain Crimson]

Here's one to net me a few strange looks.

I like Neelix. Not early on, H no! But starting with late S3 going into S4.

[Makeshift Python]

At what point do these boxes just end up being the equivalent of 'token black guy'.

"Token Black Guy" is a character that literally serves no purpose other than to fill a quota. Has no bearing on a storyline, is largely considered disposable when it comes to character dynamics, etc. An example of a character as that is one who could easily be written out of the show that their absence leaves no repercussions.

SMALLVILLE had this problem with the character Pete Ross, who is supposed to be Clark Kent's best friend growing up. One of the criticisms of the first season was that his character was given very little to do. Mostly just tagging along. For the second season the writers decided to have him find out Clark's secret and that allowed the character to be more heavily involved in stories/plots that other characters wouldn't have been able to do. However, by the third season his character seemed to have been relegated to cameos, since the actor was contracted as part of the main cast. He'd just show up briefly and disappear, sometimes not even appear in episodes at all. By the end of the third season he was written out and replaced by a new white character to bring a love triangle storyline dating Clark's crush Lana. Ironic, since Pete Ross in the comics married Lang if I'm correct.

[Captain Crimson]

I liked Pete Ross. And it may have been a while since I watched Smallville, but there were tons of other monsters of the week that showed up, including minorities, IIRC. Plus, how does this apply to Pete and not, say, Whitney? He's Lana's boyfriend, yet he doesn't really do much, except to join the army and get killed so to serve as a bit of inspiration for Clark - and who just happens to be white. The reason for that is I'd say SV overall had a larger problem by not wanting to focus on story arcs early on. It felt like a show with no plan from the beginning, from an age past rather than what the new gold standard should be with SG still ongoing.

[McAvoy]

I liked Pete Ross. And it may have been a while since I watched Smallville, but there were tons of other monsters of the week that showed up, including minorities, IIRC. Plus, how does this apply to Pete and not, say, Whitney? He's Lana's boyfriend, yet he doesn't really do much, except to join the army and get killed so to serve as a bit of inspiration for Clark - and who just happens to be white. The reason for that is I'd say SV overall had a larger problem by not wanting to focus on story arcs early on. It felt like a show with no plan from the beginning, from an age past rather than what the new gold standard should be with SG still ongoing.

Yeah first two seasons were pretty much monster of the week with some connection to one episode. But yeah it was made in 2001 so it was still part of the episodic formula.

Then they started from there to create season long arcs for each season. Big bad of the season. Similar to Supernatural. Which kinda makes sense because they were sister shows for a time.

I think Pete Ross isn't an issue of being a token black character but more of not really knowing how to write him. It happens in alot of shows.

The Pete Ross thing though is small fries in how the whole show became pretty much after the sixth season. For me it almost became a chore to watch to see how and when and if we will get Superman.

... And all we got her CGI shots, long distance shots, and very close ups of the suit. That Clark not flying started to get tedious.

[Captain Crimson]

I liked Pete Ross. And it may have been a while since I watched Smallville, but there were tons of other monsters of the week that showed up, including minorities, IIRC. Plus, how does this apply to Pete and not, say, Whitney? He's Lana's boyfriend, yet he doesn't really do much, except to join the army and get killed so to serve as a bit of inspiration for Clark - and who just happens to be white. The reason for that is I'd say SV overall had a larger problem by not wanting to focus on story arcs early on. It felt like a show with no plan from the beginning, from an age past rather than what the new gold standard should be with SG still ongoing.

Yeah first two seasons were pretty much monster of the week with some connection to one episode. But yeah it was made in 2001 so it was still part of the episodic formula.

Then they started from there to create season long arcs for each season. Big bad of the season. Similar to Supernatural. Which kinda makes sense because they were sister shows for a time.

I think Pete Ross isn't an issue of being a token black character but more of not really knowing how to write him. It happens in alot of shows.

The Pete Ross thing though is small fries in how the whole show became pretty much after the sixth season. For me it almost became a chore to watch to see how and when and if we will get Superman.

... And all we got her CGI shots, long distance shots, and very close ups of the suit. That Clark not flying started to get tedious.

I felt Lex Luthor was the best character, and I liked the idea of wanting to make him Clark's best friend more than the execution. Being a good guy who turns to bad, how is that not original? But the execution was, again, poor, plus Clark's PIS in refusing to tell him the truth, which I know he was being secretive about it, but he still should have done so at several points.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

Bashir and Garak's stories/motivations/themes all work very well without them being gay lovers.

I didn't realize the "obvious truth" of them being a thing until I started reading the fanon/thoughts of the online community.

That being said I acknowledge that O'Brien likes Bashir more than Kimiko and the feeling is mutual, but Bashir/Ezri is still my favorite pairing for him.

[Beastro]

Bashir and Garak's stories/motivations/themes all work very well without them being gay lovers.

The one thing I dislike more than people trying to mask such implications is those reading too deeply such relationships. It's the sort of thing that sees any sort of comradely that's more than superficial between men as having implicitly a degree of homosexuality to it.

I've known a few people who have lost friends in war and it bugs me to think that that closeness they shared is looked on in such a stupid, immature way.

[Captain Crimson]

Bashir and Garak's stories/motivations/themes all work very well without them being gay lovers.

The one thing I dislike more than people trying to mask such implications is those reading too deeply such relationships. It's the sort of thing that sees any sort of comradely that's more than superficial between men as having implicitly a degree of homosexuality to it.

I've known a few people who have lost friends in war and it bugs me to think that that closeness they shared is looked on in such a stupid, immature way.

I think it's just a want, for those who do like tolerance themes, a need for a gay couple to appear who have charisma, don't flaunt their gayness, act just like regular people to the point no one comments on it (which we dream of being commonplace in the real 23rd century), and who both survive at the end. I agree just because two characters have chemistry doesn't make them romantic, but it's in many cases a very good first step. We also know the actors were on board, but Mr. Berman didn't want that, alas...

[McAvoy]

Didn't the actor confirm that he at least for Garak's first appareance that he he acted like he was hitting on Bashir?