Enterprise: Space Nazi Two-parter

[Beastro]

One thing I'm surprised about the "non-Aryan killing pathogen" was that a bit wasn't later added with the aliens mentioning that it was all BS and such a pathogen would kill all humans, but by then they'd have gotten what they wanted so who cares if lowly Mankind is exterminated?

It would also be a perfect jump-off-point to explain, how and why the Star Trek timeline diverges so drastically from our reality. The Eugenics Wars are a much more "natural" development in a world, where german notions of the Übermensch became widespread, instead of a world where the arian Übermensch was crushed under the boot-heel of the oh so inferior slavic Untermensch. Now, for the sake of a better world instead of the Mirror Universe, Germany does not need to win the war, but merely be beaten into a situation were they can sue for an equal peace, instead of being forced into an unconditional surrender.

The problem is another non-victorious World War where most of Europe is under their rule, at the very least the restoration of the old German Empire borders would hurt German self-prestige. WWII wasn't simply vengeance for losing WWI, it was to right history back on the path it was meant to be go on, with Germany above all others and to punish everyone who defeated them two decades ago for daring to violate the rules of the universe by denying them their destiny.

It's up in the air to what degree that was in the German people before WWI, but the end of WWI shoved it in their psyche given the way Germany broke after the failure of Operation Micheal. Given the way it was hyped in Germany beforehand it was thought by everyone that victory was in the bag after Russia was knocked out and they still failed to defeat the Western Powers.

WWII had to be a total victory or else it would be a defeat no matter what happened, because even then WWI would still not be avenged.

The other problem is to push Germany to the point of such a negotiation would still result in a massive loss of life for them which, IMO, I think would be greater than what they suffered historically, and when combined with WWI was a huge loss of life that continued to haunt Germany in ways most Germans don't even realize in the same way the loss of life France sustained from Louis XIV to Napoleon continues to linger to this very day and explains why they were so terrified of a unified Germany.

The issue with Eugenics was that they already were widespread, it was that after WWII and knowing what Germany did, they suddenly fell out of fashion and everyone who was for it acted as if they never knew what is was. It's funny when people make a big deal about those who supported Eugenics before WWII, or at least spoke highly of it, when it was easier to make a list of those against it given how popular it was.

For the Eugenics Wars to happen I could only see the World Wars somehow not happening alongside the spread of Communism so that the massive loss of life we faced in the 20th Century never left it's impact and that allowing Eugenics to remain as a linger force in popular opinion enough to spread further and further until genetic technology then allows most everyone on Earth to try to mess with it.

What WWII to most people was bring so many issues to a head and have people confront things like their prejudices and see the murderous end result of them. Christians had issues and a dislike for Jews, then they got to see where that could lead which made many Christians confront the fact that, while they may dislike Jews they didn't want to bloody well exterminate every one of them. The same went for how Germany feitishized empire building and imperialism where conquering and ruling over people wasn't simply a good plan to expand ones national interest, but something craved by the Germany where they needed people beneath them that bowed and suffered at their whim that forced Western Civilization to take a hard look at their empires and finally confront them head on morally.

[Archanubis]

The other problem is to push Germany to the point of such a negotiation would still result in a massive loss of life for them which, IMO, I think would be greater than what they suffered historically, and when combined with WWI was a huge loss of life that continued to haunt Germany in ways most Germans don't even realize in the same way the loss of life France sustained from Louis XIV to Napoleon continues to linger to this very day and explains why they were so terrified of a unified Germany.

To be fair, many German generals and government officials did urge Hitler to sue for peace before American and British forces crossed the Rhine, if only to free up the forces opposing them to fight the Red Army. Hitler pretty much refused. And it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway, because it's very probable that the US and UK wouldn't have accepted any offer of negotiations unless the Russians *were* involved, and Russia was determined to punish Germany for its invasion of their territory.

[Beastro]

And it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway, because it's very probable that the US and UK wouldn't have accepted any offer of negotiations unless the Russians *were* involved,

Unconditional surrender was an agreement all the Allies agreed to push, this would be the last World War Germany with Germany opposing them. One can see that in how the peace feelers Japan sent through the Soviet Union came to nothing, they wanted status quo ante bellum for the explicit purpose of rebuilding to try again down the line just like Germany did.

and Russia was determined to punish Germany for its invasion of their territory.

And I can see why the Soviet Union did, just as France did after WWI given the damage Germany had done to their industrial heartland as they withdrew.

[Avatarian]

Is it just me or was that joke about the microwave a Steins; Gate reference?

[Shuboy07]

I read somewhere that the reason for the cliffhanger at the end of season 3 was because a writer was doing it out of spite or to get revenge or something. I'm not saying Chuck's wrong, I'm not saying what I've heard is right, I'm saying it's different to what I've heard. I assume Chuck has the right version of the story.

When the season 3 cliffhanger aired, was it known to the fandom that Enterprise was definitely going to have a 4th season?

Zero Hour was written by Berman and Braga so I don't believe the cliffhanger was written in anger. However it was definitely written so that if Enterprise got canceled, the fans would have immediately gone after the network.

[GandALF]

One thing I'm surprised about the "non-Aryan killing pathogen" was that a bit wasn't later added with the aliens mentioning that it was all BS and such a pathogen would kill all humans, but by then they'd have gotten what they wanted so who cares if lowly Mankind is exterminated?

Arguably the Nazi intelligentsia knew it was BS too and thought of the master race as more of a metaphor for a quasi-pagan warrior nation that had shunned the "weakness" of Judeo-Christian ethics and enlightenment values. That's why they liked the Japanese: they were a fellow "warrior race" that even had a semi-divine Emperor like the Romans.

[Archanubis]

Is it just me or was that joke about the microwave a Steins; Gate reference?

I think it was a Futurama reference - or most watchers would take it as such.

[Archon_Wing]

"...and admittedly, an orbital spaceship is a pretty potent weapon against an army whose primary means of moving its artillery is the horse."

I may have literally clapped my hands at that line. That might not be the popular image of the Wehrmacht, which tends to portray it as a high-tech mechanized striking force (panzers! Stukas! Paratroopers! Sturmgewehrs!), but it's entirely accurate: if we set aside the small fraction of elite mechanized/armored troops, the majority of the Wehrmacht was essentially a worse-trained, worse-motivated version of the footslogging armies of 1914.

There's a lot to be said about the Wehrmacht's Facts versus Fiction, but worse-trained the soldiers were certainly not. If anything kept the war going as far and for as long as it did against all the odds, then it was doctrine, leadership and the simple foot-soldier. Obviously deterioration settles in towards the end of the war, where children and grandfathers were drafted.

Darn, I gotta agree that "Unnameed Nazi is probably not a good typecasting. I also laughed at Archer getting shot; which doesn't really bode well to getting into this.

Also, very interesting methods of time travel. It does make me wonder why don't people just fling around stars really fast more.

I laughed at the pathogen part; better patch it to not affect Japanese. Oh, they'll wipe Enterprise from existence. Ah, I'll try to look concerned.

It would also be a perfect jump-off-point to explain, how and why the Star Trek timeline diverges so drastically from our reality. The Eugenics Wars are a much more "natural" development in a world, where german notions of the Übermensch became widespread, instead of a world where the arian Übermensch was crushed under the boot-heel of the oh so inferior slavic Untermensch. Now, for the sake of a better world instead of the Mirror Universe, Germany does not need to win the war, but merely be beaten into a situation were they can sue for an equal peace, instead of being forced into an unconditional surrender.

Possibly. But that was probably too complex for Enterprise for that point. And yea, more realistically, even with superweapons, Germany could have only stayed intact if they eventually made peace, or as noted by the video, every German would have to defend literally everything.

[Mickey_Rat15]

For the Part 2 review:

If assassinating Lenin in 1916 means that the Soviet Union never came to be, then that likely means that Nazi Germany never came to be (or how it came to be would have been much different), as Fascism arose as a less radical alternative to International Socialism (many intellectuals felt that classical liberal democracy was a failed experiment that had run its course and was unimportant to the course of the future). Without the backing of the Soviets, Communist movements within Gemany and Italy would have looked less powerful and less like foreign backed sedition of those nations, which would have made fascists look less attractive as an alternative.

[bronnt]

For the Part 2 review:

If assassinating Lenin in 1916 means that the Soviet Union never came to be, then that likely means that Nazi Germany never came to be (or how it came to be would have been much different), as Fascism arose as a less radical alternative to International Socialism (many intellectuals felt that classical liberal democracy was a failed experiment that had run its course and was unimportant to the course of the future). Without the backing of the Soviets, Communist movements within Gemany and Italy would have looked less powerful and less like foreign backed sedition of those nations, which would have made fascists look less attractive as an alternative.

That's exactly what I was thinking. There's almost no way that Mussolini or the Nazi's ever gain power without the fear of Communism in Europe.

I've never seen this episode before so I'm judging this entirely based on Chuck's review, but that sounds like extremely shoddy history. What actually happened in Russia? The Tsars were on their way out, regardless, and the Bolsheviks were just one of the factions involved in a massive revolution to overthrow them. Did Alexander Kerensky remain in power, then? If that's the case, Russia would probably have remained a close ally of France and Britain.

Additionally, there's a decent chance the snowball effect would lead to a nation like Italy ending up with a communist government. Marxism and Communism were hardly movements confined to the Soviet Union, and they were gaining traction in plenty of places where there was a growing population of urban workers.