Oopsy woopsy, 45 lost 545 migrant children

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Its always sad when children are punished for the crimes of their parents. With any luck these kids will serve as a warning to the next set of parents who choose to try and trespass in another country.

That is... just so shockingly heartless, how could you say that? I felt Madner Kami had raised more pragmatic reasons for this, that at least the kids will, theoretically, get a better education and opportunities than they did back home. Doesn't make it right, but your remark doesn't either.

I'm not heartless, I feel for the kids. BUT nor do I think that there is anyone to blame but the parents. ILLEGAL immigrants are criminals - there is no difference between this and taking your kids with you to rob a bank. And lets be clear here: Mexico is not Somalia. Its a pretty nice place to live on the grand scale of things. These people were not fleeing war, genocide, persecution; they just wanted to live in a richer country. Any ''but the parents had to do it!'' excuse just does not fly here.

"Illegal" immigrants aren't any more criminals than anyone who's ever gotten a speeding ticket or a parking violation. The people in these concentration camps haven't been charged with any crime or prosecuted in front of a jury.

Let's say you take a shortcut and cross through my backyard. How would you like it if I decided to lock you in my basement for a few months while a judge decided whether or not what you did qualifies as trespassing or whether you were just using the public right of way?

And what makes you say that they weren't fleeing war, genocide, or persecution? Have you read up on the subject? Do you have statistically significant surveys of the reasons for emigration? Have you seen an interview with somebody who fled Mexico for the USA?

You say you feel for the kids, but you are 100% in favor of policies that leave volunteer lawyers struggling to explain to them with puppets why daddy may never see them again.

[Captain Crimson]

Just shut down all immigration, not just from "brown" countries. Everywhere. We can't even help ourselves, take care of our own people without severe backlash, criticism, and now people willing to kill each other over it. How can we be expected to help poor, bedraggled, desperate people from another country who deserve better? Because the DNC thinks it will help them in 30 years, but in all honesty, that won't help them since I've known many Latinos and blacks that are just as skeptical of them as the GOP. But really, we need to address our own problems first before we begin helping others. There should be nothing controversial about that with how polarized this country is, apparently on the verge of another civil war...

[CharlesPhipps]

Just shut down all immigration, not just from "brown" countries. Everywhere. We can't even help ourselves, take care of our own people without severe backlash, criticism, and now people willing to kill each other over it. How can we be expected to help poor, bedraggled, desperate people from another country who deserve better? Because the DNC thinks it will help them in 30 years, but in all honesty, that won't help them since I've known many Latinos and blacks that are just as skeptical of them as the GOP. But really, we need to address our own problems first before we begin helping others. There should be nothing controversial about that with how polarized this country is, apparently on the verge of another civil war...

Honestly, it's because immigrants are keeping this country from collapsing into a complete collapse due to the idiotic policies of corrupt politicians catering to looter corporate leaders. I grew up rich, and I don't mean millionaires, I mean double digit millionaires and got to hang around with the REAL morons and shakers. I know exactly who ruined this country. People who would burn down a hospital full of orphans to make an extra percentage and were outraged at the idea of brown people being given enough money for their kids not to die.

And what plenty of morons in my home state missed: They didn't care if poor whites' kids died either.

Immigrants are why social security hasn't collapsed in this country. Not "real" immigrants either but the illegal kind because these people are paying taxes they can never collect on and as a result that money kept the whole thing from collapsing in 2010. Temporary immigrants are a massive economic boom to the United States because of currency exchange. They come here, work for shit money, and then they send it back to their families where the dollar is worth like x10 its value locally and they can eat an extra year despite the horrible conditions assholes put them in.

There's also a weird idea of America being some kind of zero sum game where for every extra person who arrives in the United States, a white person loses their job or somehow the net benefit goes down versus the idea that maybe we actually could use these people and the general poverty in the country has less to do with "immigrants stealing jobs" and maybe more with "assholes exporting them and pocketing the difference."

There's a movie that was heavy handed called Elysium starring Matt Damon and Jodie Foster. One of the most interesting things was that there was actually a difference between the "levels of villainy" displayed by the anti-immigration baddies. The bosses of Elysium just wanted to catch and release the illegal immigrants and Jodie Foster believed they had to straight up execute them. I remember that because it reminded me of the attitude to kidnapping children and child seperation. A psychopath things that immigrants, who are at worst ANNOYING [if they're criminals you don't need to go after them for being immigrants], need to terrified into not coming.

Its the Punisher going after jaywalkers because racism and stupid fears of the other.

[Makeshift Python]

I wouldn't take clearspira seriously anymore at this point. He's proven to be an unintelligent vile human being. Not worth conversing with.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I think that's a bit harsh. He can be reasonable. Though maybe my standards have been lowered a bit by spending so much time arguing with 45's apologists.

[Makeshift Python]

I can’t think of any instance, but you may be giving more credit than you ought to. Crimson can be right about something on occasion like about the DNC being total buffoons, but then again a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Captain Crimson]

I can’t think of any instance, but you may be giving more credit than you ought to. Crimson can be right about something on occasion like about the DNC being total buffoons, but then again a broken clock is right twice a day.

You're being rather snobbish here yourself, if not outright nasty. Calling clearspira dumb. I don't buy what people here say about one another. People are just very passionate about their beliefs, and we're all adrift in the great boat breaking apart into splinters, struggling to make it to shore without a paddle in a thunderstorm. No certainty we'll make it. And that makes everyone scared. But we've had culture wars before. I think we'll make it through this one okay. My thinking is, what happens next time?

In fact, people should fight for their beliefs. You leftists here tend to be extremely radical, yet I won't deny you're committed to your cause. It is something to respect, even if you don't agree. And as to those leaning right here, I see the same thing, wanting to defend what they believe in, because monkey brain is always going to have its cognitive biases.

[goodperson25]

I can’t think of any instance, but you may be giving more credit than you ought to. Crimson can be right about something on occasion like about the DNC being total buffoons, but then again a broken clock is right twice a day.

You're being rather snobbish here yourself, if not outright nasty. Calling clearspira dumb. I don't buy what people here say about one another. People are just very passionate about their beliefs, and we're all adrift in the great boat breaking apart into splinters, struggling to make it to shore without a paddle in a thunderstorm. No certainty we'll make it. And that makes everyone scared. But we've had culture wars before. I think we'll make it through this one okay. My thinking is, what happens next time?

In fact, people should fight for their beliefs. You leftists here tend to be extremely radical, yet I won't deny you're committed to your cause. It is something to respect, even if you don't agree. And as to those leaning right here, I see the same thing, wanting to defend what they believe in, because monkey brain is always going to have its cognitive biases.

Is this storm-tossed ship the US, the world, or this forum.

Regardless I'm seeing some contradictions.

[Makeshift Python]

I can’t think of any instance, but you may be giving more credit than you ought to. Crimson can be right about something on occasion like about the DNC being total buffoons, but then again a broken clock is right twice a day.

You're being rather snobbish here yourself, if not outright nasty. Calling clearspira dumb.

I was just venting. But seriously, I'm just done trying to be respectful and decent toward people who either haven't earned it or lost it. For example, if President Trump dies, I'm not going to be quiet. I'll say he died a piece of shit and deserves to have his corpse pissed on at his funeral. I don't care how insensitive that is. It's derision he deserves in life and death because it's what he gave to everyone else. At least I paid my taxes in the country I reside.

[Captain Crimson]

I can’t think of any instance, but you may be giving more credit than you ought to. Crimson can be right about something on occasion like about the DNC being total buffoons, but then again a broken clock is right twice a day.

You're being rather snobbish here yourself, if not outright nasty. Calling clearspira dumb.

I was just venting. But seriously, I'm just done trying to be respectful and decent toward people who either haven't earned it or lost it. For example, if President Trump dies, I'm not going to be quiet. I'll say he died a piece of shit and deserves to have his corpse pissed on at his funeral. I don't care how insensitive that is. It's derision he deserves in life and death because it's what he gave to everyone else. At least I paid my taxes in the country I reside.

You know what? That's a totally valid viewpoint, and I get that, especially since you are not A) In a position of jury or B) In a place where you're forced to have power over him. You're just a class peer, I get that. The world is filled with so many horrible people, you feel like, what's one less? The wrong people die and the worst people live forever, it feels like sometimes? I can sympathize to it, because it feeds into the cycle of hopelessness we have going. We need something more upbeat. I already have said the system would be slightly better with Mr. Biden in charge. I simply don't like the attitude the DNC has, that because they think the majority of the country would be on their side, I somehow owe them a vote. That's perhaps why it may seem like I'm a GOP apologist. They at least work to earn the vote either with campaigning or dirty election tricks. I don't like that others feel "entitled" to something from me. Moral certainty is a fine thing that leads you off a cliff if not restrained.

That being said, however, I don't have any issue with clearspira here, as I see the other user as being another class peer, an idealist dreaming over a better world, but one more in line with equality. And true egalitarianism demands some very hard ruthlessness and shunning from the easy solutions. A lot of things have gone into the crapper over the last few decades, and I think clearspira is mourning for the loss of potential we had going into the 21st century. That is my impression. My only regret is that our entertainment has no more passion, it's very sterile, even if it has great ideas.

Plus there should be no denying there is a bit of a hypocrisy here. You guys want tolerance when it comes to minorities and women, I can understand that, I'd like that. But then for "the wrong people" you're totally on board with some of the more deplorable aspects of human nature. The issue here is not that you're hypocrites. Mr. Lennon, we're all hypocrites at heart. The issue is to take ownership of that. How can you defend tolerance when you so clearly want such ill wishes on another? Tolerance is for your worst foe, I'd say that person needs it more than those you agree with. That's not tolerance, that is just wanting your cause to prevail. Not that I AM asking you to defend him. Some steps are just too far. But it's you guys being on your side, the others being on their side, and 'round and 'round we go on the merry-go-round. Where does it end?

There are some things I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Not even the kid who pulled my hair and shoved beetles into my pants and pushed my head in the toilet. Which is why I never want to be put in a situation to feel tempted. But if you felt otherwise, I can't begrudge you that. If so.

I suspect this is why Mr. Chuck never posts here, since he'd get blasted down by all walks of the political aisle. Rough days... and Mr. 45 is a crass, foul-mouthed, bad man, but he's just the symptom, not the cause. It won't end with his removal from office and death, I'm afraid. So aren't you judged by how you respond in this dark time? Though as I said, I understand the viewpoint. If it helps you get by in a rough time, you do you, fam.