Supernatural: Pilot

[Neddy471]

The biggest failing of the show is that the plot has to bend over backwards to justify why two rednecks can fight the forces of evil and not be instantly squished, so that they can have the appeal of being about blue collar demon hunters.

Uh, you do realize that most Ghost-lore is based on peasant remedies, right? Salt, silver, knives, etc. all were codified in medieval/renaissance/early modern history. This is the level of technology that rednecks live at. It makes perfect sense.

The show really revels in the idea that large cities don't really exist. In that large cities don't exist, and that every town they go into are small, out in the middle of nowhere, towns. This is again, to justify the plot that the Winchesters can get away with everything they do.

Except for No Exit, Nightshifter, Phantom Traveler, Skin, Faith, Tall Tales, Malleus Maleficarum, Red Sky at Morning, Mystery Spot, Jus in Bello, Monster Movie, Hollywood Babylon, and half the episodes of seasons 2 and 3.

Did... did you watch the show? A major theme of all series is that the Brother's aren't getting away with almost anything... it's just that they're so mobile that the FBI and police forces have trouble catching them when they come into town. Even the pilot has an instance of the Police managing to catch them. This is a major theme. You cannot watch the show without noticing that the Brothers stick to smaller towns and the outskirts of suburbs (Like Malleus Maleficarum; Hell House, as you pointed out, was a big research failure) because the police forces are less likely to collaborate with the FBI and regional law enforcement.

"Nightshifter" ends with Dean literally saying "We are so screwed" because they realize the FBI is on their tail. It's a major plot theme throughout the second and third seasons. The question of "how do they get away with it" is a major theme throughout the entirety of the first five seasons. It's a constant interplay. Did you watch the show?

The other problem, of course, is that the forces of heaven, hell, and beyond only seem to operate in the US. You will never see a monster, ghost, demon, or some other thing anywhere outside of the continental US in Supernatural.

Yeah, because the main characters are Americans who don't travel outside the Country because they have so many felonies attached to their names that they cannot get passports without being picked up by the FBI.

I don't think you watched the show.

[Neddy471]

Dean's behavior gets better and the show really does explore him putting on show of machismo. Although the character regresses after season 5. But most characters start out rough they need to grow.

(snip)

Oh man season 5 wraps up the on going story so nicely. I was pretty disappointed at how loose the story telling got after that. They really didn't keep up with continuity and killing off characters like crazy. You would start to like someone and they were just killed off. I have come back in for funnier episodes like the Scooby crossover.

I think you've summed up my position.

They do some great comedy episodes in this show. Changing Channels is awesome. The Real Ghostbusters making fun of them doing their gruff voice is great. The one with the Universal Monsters done in black and white is also one of my favorites and I usually watch it around Halloween every year.

That's "Monster Movie."

The fandom gives this show a bad name. SOME of them (not all) get so mad at you if you don't think the slash pairing they want isn't there. I also have had some people, mainly men, think it's a show only for young girls or woman who like slash. They are usually surprised when I show it to them and its pretty scary and fun.

Yeah, it's why I usually stick to the first five seasons, season 6 is really where you can see that the Dean/Sam fans started getting their way.

[FaxModem1]

The biggest failing of the show is that the plot has to bend over backwards to justify why two rednecks can fight the forces of evil and not be instantly squished, so that they can have the appeal of being about blue collar demon hunters.

Uh, you do realize that most Ghost-lore is based on peasant remedies, right? Salt, silver, knives, etc. all were codified in medieval/renaissance/early modern history. This is the level of technology that rednecks live at. It makes perfect sense.

The show really revels in the idea that large cities don't really exist. In that large cities don't exist, and that every town they go into are small, out in the middle of nowhere, towns. This is again, to justify the plot that the Winchesters can get away with everything they do.

Except for No Exit, Nightshifter, Phantom Traveler, Skin, Faith, Tall Tales, Malleus Maleficarum, Red Sky at Morning, Mystery Spot, Jus in Bello, Monster Movie, Hollywood Babylon, and half the episodes of seasons 2 and 3.

Did... did you watch the show? A major theme of all series is that the Brother's aren't getting away with almost anything... it's just that they're so mobile that the FBI and police forces have trouble catching them when they come into town. Even the pilot has an instance of the Police managing to catch them. This is a major theme. You cannot watch the show without noticing that the Brothers stick to smaller towns and the outskirts of suburbs (Like Malleus Maleficarum; Hell House, as you pointed out, was a big research failure) because the police forces are less likely to collaborate with the FBI and regional law enforcement.

"Nightshifter" ends with Dean literally saying "We are so screwed" because they realize the FBI is on their tail. It's a major plot theme throughout the second and third seasons. The question of "how do they get away with it" is a major theme throughout the entirety of the first five seasons. It's a constant interplay. Did you watch the show?

The other problem, of course, is that the forces of heaven, hell, and beyond only seem to operate in the US. You will never see a monster, ghost, demon, or some other thing anywhere outside of the continental US in Supernatural.

Yeah, because the main characters are Americans who don't travel outside the Country because they have so many felonies attached to their names that they cannot get passports without being picked up by the FBI.

I don't think you watched the show.

And you do realize that they deal with Angels, demons, Lovecraftian horrors, werewolves, vampires, zombies and a dozen other things, right? And all you need, apparently, is someone from Kansas with a machete. Did you even watch the show?

[Neddy471]

And you do realize that they deal with Angels, demons, Lovecraftian horrors, werewolves, vampires, zombies and a dozen other things, right? And all you need, apparently, is someone from Kansas with a machete. Did you even watch the show?

"Amazing, every word of what you just said is wrong."

Okay, first of all: You apparently haven't seen the show. The entire premise is that their only advantage is the knowledge of decades of study and research ("Dad's Journal" - it's in the first episode, they almost get killed because they don't take the time to research), and tools based on hundreds or thousands of years of humans fighting these monsters.

After season 5, things get weird, but before then the only reason they survive is by massive amounts of research, luck, powerful allies (they have an Angel on their side for the entirety of the season they're fighting Angels, and a Demon on their side for the entirety of the season that Dean is being chased by demons; a single demon almost defeats both brothers and their father in season 2), and good old fashioned human ingenuity.

At no point, is "someone from Kansas with a machete" an answer to any of their problems. Ever. Even when things get weird in Season 6 onward. (If you could please give me an episode in any season where it is, I'd like to rewatch the episode)

You should watch the show before you criticize it. It appears you read a comment about the research failure in Season 1 Episode 17 ("Hell House" - one they admit in interviews because when they picked the name, they misread a map and thought the town was one farther out in the boonies [There is a smaller "Richardson, TX" in Presidio County that they confused it for]) and that's the entirety of your analysis of the show.

[Fianna]

Basically, Supernatural runs on the premise that everything has its own version of Kryptonite, and what the brothers do is less about fighting monsters head on, and more about trying to figure out what kind of monster they're up against, figure out what its weakness is, and then figure out a way to exploit that weakness.

Though, as they start facing more and more cosmic entities, the show does have to do a lot of contortions to explain why some bad guy doesn't just snap their fingers and make them dead.

[FaxModem1]

Any episode where they deal with a vampire, aside from the Vampire Alpha(that was with the Colt), and most glaringly, the ones dealing with the Devourers from Purgatory. The only time I was really impressed by the Winchesters was when they had the exorcism chant recorded on tape on a stereo. It was something actually innovative. Most of the time, the Winchesters are VERY amateur hour in how they do things. I've watched the entire series, and frankly, the plot armor from God in season 15 makes sense as to why the Winchesters always win. My other problem with the series is how, like Buffy and X-Files before it, the heroes have a very haphazard way of doing things. Unlike those two shows, you don't have the protagonists as the ones causing doom and gloom for everyone else due to their own personal choices. Lady Bevell was written as insane and violent, because she made the Winchesters look incompetent in how bad they let everything slide, and Supernatural can't have real organization in the show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWtH0t3nYpI

I get why, Supernatural WANTS the show to be about the freedom of the open road, about not having to answer to anybody but yourself as you go around, kicking ass and taking names. But the part they really skip out on is that because that's how the Winchesters and other American hunters operate, a lot of people get killed. I remember one sheriff once called them out on it too, asking why didn't they put this stuff on Youtube, and the Winchesters have no answer. Because if they did, if they tried to stop hiding behind the Masquerade, they couldn't be the Winchesters, monster hunter extraordinaire. At least Mulder and Scully were looking for proof to expose to the world. The Winchesters don't want to because they prefer the Hunter lifestyle.

[Cheerilee]

Dean's behavior gets better and the show really does explore him putting on show of machismo.

This is what I was going to post. Dean's cartoonishness is a facade, but it doesn't really drop, because Dean *lives* that facade.

Sam & Dean's father lived a normal life until his saw his wife get killed by ghosts, at which point he became aware of the world that exists in the shadows, and was unable to go back to blissful ignorance since that world had taken his wife. So he dropped "normal" and started digging for info and became a monster hunter. And he took his two kids with him.

Dean was old enough to know his mother and know his old life, and observed the change in his father, and his father became a superhero in his eyes. Dean wants nothing more than to become as cool as he thinks his father is, which shapes everything about how Dean presents himself. (Also, Dean has a desperate need to remain close to his father and brother, since they're all he has left, especially Sam, since Dad told Dean to protect Sam.)

Sam, on the other hand, was too young to know his mother, so he never felt her loss, and he never experienced that same trauma that Dean and their father did. He grew up in a strange family, and never recognized it as being strange, until he learned that his family was not like other families, and he eventually asked why they can't just be normal? (Until the things that go bump in the night came for the woman he loved as well.)

[legatus]

Thanks for starting The Supernatural.
Its my guilty pleasure and I have been with the show since my Uni years. Also some characters are just awesome - Crowley, Mr Ketch, even Rowena.

[cdrood]

While never a hardcore fan, I have been in and out of the show over the years. The thing to keep in mind is that Dean had the dual issues of being his father's monster hunting sidekick AND de facto parent/protector to Sam. He has no frame of reference when it comes to a "normal life" outside of those early years before losing their mother.

[Neddy471]

Any episode where they deal with a vampire, aside from the Vampire Alpha(that was with the Colt), and most glaringly, the ones dealing with the Devourers from Purgatory.

The second part is really why I consider the series "over" as of season 6.

As for the first... even a synopsis demonstrates that you're not being entirely accurate (Not including in the post for SPOILERY reasons), I didn't even have to watch the episodes:

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/Vampires

Maybe in Season Nine and onwards? It's why I don't like season 6 onwards. I know it's "Half the show" but it's the same reason I don't watch the prequels. Season 1 through 5 have a complete arc, and can be enjoyed without the rest of the show (I would even say they're more enjoyable without them).

I mean, I understand you're disappointed in the show, but I don't see why you feel you have to misrepresent the show (especially the early seasons) to everyone else. The centerpiece of the show is "humans, through ingenuity and perseverance, manage to overcome the supernatural." You're either misremembering the early seasons, or overly focused on the late ones - which I have never watched and don't plan to. I mean, it may explain what we're arguing over: You're saying the later seasons are crap, and I am agreeing with you.

But you can still enjoy seasons 1 through 5, even with all your reservations. That's the part of the show that doesn't have the downsides you're pointing to.