Enterprise: Space Nazi Two-parter

[G-Man]

I have to wonder if the German general managed to time travel if he would have been an ally of Khan's second-in-command Joachim. Seems like the two would enjoy scanning people's brains.

It would be a Knight Two remember.

[SuccubusYuri]

You could finagle a lot of the details, apply a psycho-history filter to the rise of the Nazis. It could be a matter of opinion if Versailles was ultimately more important. If it is communism, I mean Marx was still German and a jew, the infiltration narrative still works and socialist parties were popular world over before the USSR existed (which is always spun as communism-lite). They might have been emboldened by their success in Russia but they still held weight in elections, even during ww1. You could even say that when the socialists took over the French government in 1932 it sparked the "need" for a Hitler as they had singled France out as the jackass enemy. The other former-entente nations might be more receptive to it, even, since they weren't betrayed by Bolsheviks in the war. So instead of a great bullseye to the east you instead have this simmering paranoia all around them, which is conveniently all the nations demanding war reparations.

Though, Chuck must still be feeling unwell because he gently sidestepped a WHOLE BUNCH of 'Dear Doctor' liners with all the talk of genocide in an Enterprise episode. Or maybe he's tired of beating the dead horse but it's always someone's first video! xD

[Libluini]

That's what I find the campiest part of this episode above all else, that the invasion is in North America takes place at all and how they're suddenly overextended taking over New England. How so far from what Germany was capable it's cartoonishly cute and if they could pull of a amphibious invasion like that across the Atlantic, let alone maintain it and keep it supplied, they wouldn't be overextended that quickly.

For me, the dumbest part was Germany not attacking Russia, because in a world were Nazis exist and are in power, Generalplan Ost would still be a thing. Germany would therefore still attack eastwards, to murder the Slavs and replace them with German colonists. Great Britain was seen in a somewhat favorable manner, them not being Untermenschen, and the USA was seen as weak. So Alternative Nazi Germany would still target Russia as main enemy. Of course, without Lenin, Germany could have ended up being the center of Communism anyway, not its enemy. That would have altered past events in a fashion that nothing in the 40s would resemble known history anymore.

But that's arguable something SF-writers never really think through, so I can't resent Star Trek for that.

For the Part 2 review:
Additionally, there's a decent chance the snowball effect would lead to a nation like Italy ending up with a communist government. Marxism and Communism were hardly movements confined to the Soviet Union, and they were gaining traction in plenty of places where there was a growing population of urban workers.

Just after World War I, communists proclaimed a new socialist republic in Berlin, just after the social democrats did their own proclamation. Without extreme fear of communism, who knows if the socialist republic wouldn't have won in the end, instead of being massacred in the streets of Berlin? If they had been able to make contact with the rebelling sailors of the Hochseeflotte and without a strong enough reaction from the loyalists, history could have easily ended with Germany being the equivalent of the Soviet Union.

[Admiral X]

Incidentally, Alternate History Hub did a video on the subject of the Russian Revolution never happening:


youtu.be/MisdSQA9CmI

Also potentially relevant:


youtu.be/MQW3VefRozc


youtu.be/gBxLHCy_10w

[CareerKnight]

The issue with Eugenics was that they already were widespread, it was that after WWII and knowing what Germany did, they suddenly fell out of fashion and everyone who was for it acted as if they never knew what is was. It's funny when people make a big deal about those who supported Eugenics before WWII, or at least spoke highly of it, when it was easier to make a list of those against it given how popular it was.

For the Eugenics Wars to happen I could only see the World Wars somehow not happening alongside the spread of Communism so that the massive loss of life we faced in the 20th Century never left it's impact and that allowing Eugenics to remain as a linger force in popular opinion enough to spread further and further until genetic technology then allows most everyone on Earth to try to mess with it.

I don't think eugenics needs to survive WWII for a Eugenics War to happen. Genetic engineering is going to advance to the point that a lot of problems eugenics was suppose to solve (with its faulty understanding and horrifying methods) like birth defects and mental illnesses will be curable if not strait up preventable so the idea of making a better human will naturally arise again. In fact, in universe, I would argue its proof that WWII happened as we know it cause winners get to write the history books including naming the war and what better way to help discourage genetic engineering to make humans stronger and smarter than branding what they do eugenics thus linked to Nazis and extermination/sterilization of those deemed inferior.


A thought occurred to me while watching this (and maybe someone has already done it), what if instead of the tired old time travel plot of x helping the bad guys win war they lost thus leading to a dark future the heroes must change they did x helping the good guys win war easier thus inadvertently/intentionally leading to a dark future that the heroes must change. I think it would create a lot of moral dilemmas and help take this old sf plot device in an interesting direction.

[Antiboyscout]

It's not like Eugenics has really gone away.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/

It just shifted, changed, and tied itself inextricably to abortion, so if you argue against it they can attack you with all the usual anti-conservative buzzwords.
I mean women have a right to abort their child for any reason, right? Even if that reason is, their child is genetically inferior. Who are you to say no, you bigot.

[Rothide]

For the Part 2 review:

If assassinating Lenin in 1916 means that the Soviet Union never came to be, then that likely means that Nazi Germany never came to be (or how it came to be would have been much different), as Fascism arose as a less radical alternative to International Socialism (many intellectuals felt that classical liberal democracy was a failed experiment that had run its course and was unimportant to the course of the future). Without the backing of the Soviets, Communist movements within Gemany and Italy would have looked less powerful and less like foreign backed sedition of those nations, which would have made fascists look less attractive as an alternative.

That's exactly what I was thinking. There's almost no way that Mussolini or the Nazi's ever gain power without the fear of Communism in Europe.

I've never seen this episode before so I'm judging this entirely based on Chuck's review, but that sounds like extremely shoddy history. What actually happened in Russia? The Tsars were on their way out, regardless, and the Bolsheviks were just one of the factions involved in a massive revolution to overthrow them. Did Alexander Kerensky remain in power, then? If that's the case, Russia would probably have remained a close ally of France and Britain.

Additionally, there's a decent chance the snowball effect would lead to a nation like Italy ending up with a communist government. Marxism and Communism were hardly movements confined to the Soviet Union, and they were gaining traction in plenty of places where there was a growing population of urban workers.

Actually, if you look into the history of the Nazi party and Mussolini, you'll find that they actually felt that Nazism or as it was known from the 1920-1945, The Socialist German Workers Party, was actually the next evolution of Communism. You can even read Mussolini's views in "My Rise and Fall" (specifically the My Rise section which is his auto-Biography) actually talks about the anger he had toward the Italian Socialist Party after being outed as a Journalist from "Avanti!" (a socialist newspaper which is currently still being run by what remains of the Italian Socialist party). In his articles, he said that "Socialism was dead" toward Socialism in Italy, not that it was a false idea, but that it was being done in a self-serving way. He criticized the communist leaders for allowing themselves to take a seat of power in Italy's Parlement and called it a betrayal of socialist principles because a Capitalist Government could not transition into a socialist government, you have to destroy the established government and build socialism on top of the ashes. Fascism and Nazism are not Anti-Socialism nor Right Wing, but instead a more extreme version of Socialism.

A quote from Mussolini - "Fascism recognizes the real needs that gave rise to Socialism and trade-unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of state"

I do believe that Nazism and Fascism would still have risen even without the Socialist Revolution of Russia. The main reasons for their rise are based on the Communist ideas that were being propagated in Germany and Italy and the anger toward how they felt that the Socialists were failing them.

[bronnt]

Actually, if you look into the history of the Nazi party and Mussolini, you'll find that they actually felt that Nazism or as it was known from the 1920-1945, The Socialist German Workers Party, was actually the next evolution of Communism. You can even read Mussolini's views in "My Rise and Fall" (specifically the My Rise section which is his auto-Biography) actually talks about the anger he had toward the Italian Socialist Party after being outed as a Journalist from "Avanti!" (a socialist newspaper which is currently still being run by what remains of the Italian Socialist party). In his articles, he said that "Socialism was dead" toward Socialism in Italy, not that it was a false idea, but that it was being done in a self-serving way. He criticized the communist leaders for allowing themselves to take a seat of power in Italy's Parlement and called it a betrayal of socialist principles because a Capitalist Government could not transition into a socialist government, you have to destroy the established government and build socialism on top of the ashes. Fascism and Nazism are not Anti-Socialism nor Right Wing, but instead a more extreme version of Socialism.

Ultimately it's a matter of perceptions. Socialism was actually the chic term to use to describe various different ideologies, even if they didn't have anything in common with Marx or outright rejected Marx (kind of how many liberals want to be called "progressives" today, just a term they prefer for branding purposes). But you're right about Mussolini's involvement with the Socialist party. The thing is, while that's true for Mussolini, I'm not sure that's true for Italy as a whole.

Movements on the far left of politics have always been seen as being unruly and lawless, with the looming threat of uprisings. The violence of the french Revolution sprang from a very liberal (in the classical sense) set of ideas. So Mussolini actually established himself as the law and orer option who would be protecting people from upstart communists who might sow discord in Italty. The fact is that Russia was long viewed in Europe as being not quite European and just alien enough to elicit fear, so pairing the actual violence of the Russian Revolution and civil war with that fear made communism very unappealing. The Nazis were able to gain emergency powers in Germany by blaming the Reichstag fire on the growing communist movement in Berlin. So fear of communism certainly had a major role in the growing popularity of the Nazi party, and was true enough with fascism in Italy as well.

[GandALF]

Fascism and Nazism are not Anti-Socialism nor Right Wing, but instead a more extreme version of Socialism.

Well the right-wing part comes from the ultra-nationalism. Conservatism is essentially moderate nationalism, trusting the unique traditions of the nation over other ideas whereas communism is firmly anti-nationalism seeing class as more of a real distinction.

Fascism is heavily inspired by Nietzsche's theory that pagan warrior societies like the vikings, Romans and Japanese produced Ubermensch God-Emperors that the weak worshipped, whereas the "slave" moralities of Judasim, Christianity and the enlightenment essentially worshipped "weakness" and held back strong individuals. So Fascism is about causing a "palingenesis" in which a pagan warrior society is reborn for industrial age using a "strong" militarist socialism that rejects the "weakness" of both capitalism and communism. So the Nazis were right-wing in that they embraced nationalistic traditions in the extreme (authoritarianism, militarism) but were also left-wing in the sense that they rejected other traditions (Christianity, monarchism, capitalism) and embraced radical new ideas (nihilism, "strong" socialism).

[The Romulan Republic]

It's not like Eugenics has really gone away.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/

It just shifted, changed, and tied itself inextricably to abortion, so if you argue against it they can attack you with all the usual anti-conservative buzzwords.
I mean women have a right to abort their child for any reason, right? Even if that reason is, their child is genetically inferior. Who are you to say no, you bigot.

"Liberals are the real Nazis! Women must be controlled for the Greater Good!"- Generic Alt. Rightist.