Unpopular opinions/going against the grain of the conventional wisdom, let's talk about it

[Meushell]

Bashir and Garak's stories/motivations/themes all work very well without them being gay lovers.

The one thing I dislike more than people trying to mask such implications is those reading too deeply such relationships. It's the sort of thing that sees any sort of comradely that's more than superficial between men as having implicitly a degree of homosexuality to it.

I've known a few people who have lost friends in war and it bugs me to think that that closeness they shared is looked on in such a stupid, immature way.

Sometimes, there seems to be more than friendship between two characters. Not everyone in the audience is going to agree, and there’s nothing wrong with that, so long as we are respectful about it.

To take a Trek example, I am a Bashir/Garak shipper, however, I never saw a more-than-friends relationship with Spock and Kirk. That’s just my opinion.

It doesn’t necessarily have to be with characters of the same gender either. I didn’t pick up on the Torres/Paris vibes until it was undeniable. That’s probably because I never shipped them, and I still don’t.

As for the people you know in real life, I am sorry for the losses, for you and your friends, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume how you think people might see their friendship. If they do, I apologize, and I find that disturbing. Any real relationship (friendship or otherwise) should be respected for what it is.

[Beastro]

Bashir and Garak's stories/motivations/themes all work very well without them being gay lovers.

The one thing I dislike more than people trying to mask such implications is those reading too deeply such relationships. It's the sort of thing that sees any sort of comradely that's more than superficial between men as having implicitly a degree of homosexuality to it.

I've known a few people who have lost friends in war and it bugs me to think that that closeness they shared is looked on in such a stupid, immature way.

Sometimes, there seems to be more than friendship between two characters. Not everyone in the audience is going to agree, and there’s nothing wrong with that, so long as we are respectful about it.

To take a Trek example, I am a Bashir/Garak shipper, however, I never saw a more-than-friends relationship with Spock and Kirk. That’s just my opinion.

It doesn’t necessarily have to be with characters of the same gender either. I didn’t pick up on the Torres/Paris vibes until it was undeniable. That’s probably because I never shipped them, and I still don’t.

As for the people you know in real life, I am sorry for the losses, for you and your friends, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume how you think people might see their friendship. If they do, I apologize, and I find that disturbing. Any real relationship (friendship or otherwise) should be respected for what it is.

The only issue I ran into was in the beginning where Garak's demeanor was practically predatory towards Bashir.

Spock you could never have that even if that was such a relationship given how sangfroid he is.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

Some opinions that are sure to go against the grain, but I must:

Wolf-359 was an inside job.

Changelings aren't real.

The Dominion War didn't happen.

[Captain Crimson]

Speaking of DS9, here's perhaps an unpopular opinion I have, or at least a mixed bag.

That frankly, they never should have had Gowron turn on the UFP/Worf. Don't get me wrong, continuity wise, it absolutely lines up to TNG, and it was a good storyline, I'm not diminishing that. But as writers, they were under no obligation to do that. It's this kinda stuff is why DS9 got so much heavy criticism back in the day. Even as Mr. Chuck has said, that you can do something doesn't necessarily mean that you should, and good ideas do not a story make.

I think it's just that I really liked that, even if Gowron was a scheming political animal and he and Worf butted heads, that prior in TNG, they at least had a working amicable relationship - as much as two Klingons as different as they could have, anyway. With The Way of the Warrior, that changes. Don't get me wrong, I really do like it. It's solid TV, expertly made and fun, but... perhaps it's just I wish we could explore the alternate universe where that never happened. The what-if. Like if Martok was never ambushed.

[CharlesPhipps]

Gowron was such a interestingly despicable character, though.

Because one thing I remember is that when K'mpek is trying to figure out who poisons him, he basically says BOTH of them are scumbags.

[Madner Kami]

Because one thing I remember is that when K'mpek is trying to figure out who poisons him, he basically says BOTH of them are scumbags.

And he's right. They are both treacherous weasels, who care little for the traditions and rules beyond the appearances. The only difference is, that Gowron accepts help from the Federation, while Duras accepts help from the Romulans.

It's also kinda funny, given how Duras can be read as a victim himself actually. Watching his demenour, he never strikes me as a strong leader and reading into the background and considering auxiliary material, well, he's the son of a family of power-hungry traitors, controlled and pushed by his aunts and his family's compulsions.

[CharlesPhipps]

And he's right. They are both treacherous weasels, who care little for the traditions and rules beyond the appearances. The only difference is, that Gowron accepts help from the Federation, while Duras accepts help from the Romulans.

It's also kinda funny, given how Duras can be read as a victim himself actually. Watching his demenour, he never strikes me as a strong leader and reading into the background and considering auxiliary material, well, he's the son of a family of power-hungry traitors, controlled and pushed by his aunts and his family's compulsions.

It makes sense because Gowron repeatedly shows himself to be scum. He wants Worf to kill Duras' son, he can't command the loyalty of the majority of the Klingon Empire (Worf's brother, Kurn, more or less says that the military would probably prefer to put him in charge--and he'd do a better job), and he is at the Federation's table because he needs them but throws them under the bus when it's inconvenient. Hell, the Klingon Church try to overthrow him with a clone.

You can tell the quality of a man by the people who follow him and just about everyone dislikes him.

[Captain Crimson]

And he's right. They are both treacherous weasels, who care little for the traditions and rules beyond the appearances. The only difference is, that Gowron accepts help from the Federation, while Duras accepts help from the Romulans.

It's also kinda funny, given how Duras can be read as a victim himself actually. Watching his demenour, he never strikes me as a strong leader and reading into the background and considering auxiliary material, well, he's the son of a family of power-hungry traitors, controlled and pushed by his aunts and his family's compulsions.

It makes sense because Martok repeatedly shows himself to be scum. He wants Worf to kill Duras' son, he can't command the loyalty of the majority of the Klingon Empire (Worf's brother, Kurn, more or less says that the military would probably prefer to put him in charge--and he'd do a better job), and he is at the Federation's table because he needs them but throws them under the bus when it's inconveinant. Hell, the Klingon Church try to overthrow him with a clone.

You can tell the quality of a man by the people who follow him and just about everyone dislikes him.

Wait, Martok? But Martok was an okay dude.

[CharlesPhipps]

Typo.

[Captain Crimson]

Here's one for me. Given that I began this thread with TT, I'm going to touch up a bit more on that. I want to say that, personally, I think Mr. Zahn, Timothy Zahn, big-time EU writer for SWL and DSWC, is overrated.

Another hot take, perhaps sure to nab a response thread from Winter (and I look forward to your arguments! XD), but yeah. Don't get me wrong, Mr. Zahn is within the top 10 EU authors of all time, but at the same time, there's a lot of things I don't like about Mr. Zahn personally. For one, while I wasn't there, everything I hear from older fans says that his rampant egotism was well-known back in the '90s. He actually sort of went on to soft-key disregard other authors and the comic books, he refused to connect to them for the longest time. It's no secret he encouraged dislike on DE and shaped the fandom perception of that for decades to come, which at least might be seeing some reconsideration with TROS, TBH. And there's that april fools story he made back in 2012 that basically retconned the post-Endor timeline and amounted to him acting like "everything after my books is crap!" which I don't agree with.

In that sense, Mr. Zahn is the analog to Mr. Filoni in the SW literary world, and I feel he also should not get a pass from criticism, because while I do like Mr. Zahn's books, his egotism seems to have fueled the widespread and commonly accepted view that HTE was the only good SWL book ever, ironically coming from people who bashed on things that were in the TT, and that he was the only SWEU author to ever exist. Then again, similar to TT, maybe it's just casuals and their nonstop gushing over this while ignoring the warts they sneer at elsewhere in the EU and acting like it's the only EU book ever, that he's the only EU author worthwhile that grinds my gears so much. Could just be me.