Star Trek Discovery: Season Three

[Asvarduil]

And we get to see crazy murderhobo Mikey again: as soon as she hears and order she does not like she is ready to go rogue.

I wouldn't call her a murderhobo in the D&D sense. From the RPG stack exchange:

"Murderhobo", apparently a contraction of the slightly older term "murderous hobo", is a usually pejorative (but infrequently neutral or affectionate) term used to describe certain kinds of adventuring character, usually in Dungeons & Dragons or D&D-like games.

The murder(ous) part is because these characters primarily solve problems with violence/killing and are typically very quick to resort to violence, often even in situations where that's a really inappropriate response.

The hobo part derives from the American slang term "hobo", which specifically means not just a homeless person, but a homeless travelling worker; the hobo has no long term home and moves around from place to place looking for jobs (often carrying everything they own with them), which is a fairly obvious parallel to a traditional adventuring party who travel the world accepting quests.

Clearly Science Commando Burnham has stable employment, ergo, she can't be a hobo. She also doesn't murder very often. She is rather violent, chaotic, and unpredictable, however.

I do call her a self-righteous fuckwad, however, because she is as you say. She has a code of behavior she expects everyone else to adhere to, but doesn't realize that A) other people might not necessarily be capable of that level of behavior, for their own reasons, and B) her own code of behavior doesn't align with the kinds of behavior others expect from her. None of that is to demonize having a personal code, however - all that is to say that applying a personal code too strictly generally doesn't work all that well. Some wiggle room is required.

Saru shouldn't have to tell her not to mouth off to a ranking officer in a space navy that A) they're trying to get back into, and B) can probably shut down even her hijinks with a wave of their hand. She holds the rank of Commander, which she worked up to over the course of years. She was raised by a split Vulcan/Human household. She's supposedly a xenoanthropologist, according to the whole 'Your Tilly Is In Another Castle' arc in Season 2. She fucking knows better than to behave as she does. It's a sincere shame that I have to discuss her the same way I discuss Donald Trump.

She should also realize - especially after having been stranded in the 32nd century for a year already! - that the reason that Starfleet is being so "mean" is because they're in just as dire of a situation as all the other places she's been.

Unfortunately, it's not that Science Commando Burnham hasn't observed the state of the galaxy, and that she hasn't processed it. She knows the facts, and still makes destructive decisions, some of which have an above average chance of hurting her along with everyone else.

That's basically the definition of stupid, and honestly is the reason why I consider Burnham the go-to example of how not to write a protagonist. There's a difference between a person with limited understanding, but who has their heart in the right place...and someone who is perceptive, but makes destructive decisions as a matter of course.

Honestly, unless Burnham has acute amnesia, gets joined to a Trill symbiote, or encounters something else extreme enough to make her change her ways, I think the only way to fix the character is for the writers to kill her off. She will just keep dragging down the Discovery story.

And, in the words of Gul Dukat: "And that's sad."

[Asvarduil]

To quote Brittney Spears: "Oops I did it again..."

S3E6...where to begin. It's as if Discovery is trying to prove my Burnham Fastball Special theory correct, and is succeeding beyond my wildest dreams. I cheered when Science Commando Burnham got stripped of Second Officer status, because let's be real: the dumbass had it coming. She could've revealed that she had intel, and to be fair to Saru, as he said: he should've passed that along. However, due to his justified fear of the Burnham Fastball Special, he did not.

I was not expecting Tilly to advise against Michael, which is going to make for some awkward moments, but you know what? Tilly has proven herself a good friend. She recognizes Burnham's self-destructive behaviors, and is actively working to protect everyone that Burnham isn't thinking about, including herself. As Tilly said, Michael's insubordination could've led to the Federation fleet not trusting their quick-response vessel. Tilly is a spaz, but frankly, she's a good person. "Spaz" is but one characteristic of her character. I find I love Tilly more for making a hard call, both against and on behalf of someone she cares about.

I almost want to gloss over the Mirror Georgiou C-plot that's unfolding, because frankly? It's not the centerpiece of this episode. Yes, Mirror Georgiou is going to do Mirror Georgiou things, and she does them with great aplomb. A bit of action isn't a bad thing, and having the Emerald Chain regret not listening to Burnham's lecture on the longitudinal trends on 23rd century teenage exofemales (Don't mess with Science Commando Burnham, bitch!) was probably going to happen sooner or later. With all that said, though - clearly Georgiou is suppressing lots of things, and has understandable trust issues. I do want to see where it leads...I just can't help but feel a huge gob of schadenfreude at Burnham's demotion. Once again: the dumbass had it coming.

Michael's scene trying to connect to Georgiou was genuinely touching, and I feel is literally her character's best moment in the entire series, bar none. For once she's doing something a real human would do: looking out for someone she loves, without doing something Burnham, fast ball, and/or special.df

Also, the poignant shot at the end with her removing her badge? I'm sorry if I sound hateful, or whatever, but: boo fuckity hoo. You joined Starfleet knowing you'd have to obey a future version of the UCMJ. Starfleet is a military organization. Yeah, you got caught, and I'm sure that Parody!Janeway would lambast her for that as is her idiom, but let's be real: she's throwing a fit. She's not accepting that what she's done, while morally right, was against the rules and harmful to her friends, and had consequences that were inevitable as soon as she left Discovery's shuttlebay. Once again: if she's so hard done, leave Starfleet with your druid boyfriend, or try to help Starfleet in some other capacity. She's got experience as a courier, she's got a support system in Book, as well as the benefit of military training. She can do a lot of good in a "Han Solo" scenario. She doesn't have to restrict herself. Once again, she's being a dumbass, as is her idiom.

Also, Linus teleport spamming was funny. Good job, Linus.

Side note: I'm so taken with the concept of Science Commando Burnham not taking kindly to her delivering a xenoanthropology lecture, that my Parody!Burnham take is basically someone with the Nerd Rage perk from the Fallout series. When she nerd-hulks out, she gains a damage bonus and damage resistance.

Also, I know some of you are saying, "Aah, Asvarduil, but her boyfriend is a D&D druid! How does that fit with her having Fallout game mechanics?" My answer is that this is Star Trek, where logic goes to either die, or be retconned into being assholes.

[clearspira]

I was not expecting Tilly to advise against Michael, which is going to make for some awkward moments, but you know what? Tilly has proven herself a good friend. She recognizes Burnham's self-destructive behaviors, and is actively working to protect everyone that Burnham isn't thinking about, including herself. As Tilly said, Michael's insubordination could've led to the Federation fleet not trusting their quick-response vessel. Tilly is a spaz, but frankly, she's a good person. "Spaz" is but one characteristic of her character. I find I love Tilly more for making a hard call, both against and on behalf of someone she cares about.

They made a huge mistake making Tilly the comic relief. She is on my list of all time most annoying Star Trek characters and easily (for me) takes the crown of being this show's Neelix.

But... as you say... she has the qualities to be a better character and we are now seeing that as the show goes on. Just as Neelix has the qualities to be a better character and we saw that as Voyager went on. Whoever thought that Dunning Kruger and domestic abuser was the right starting path for Neelix needs to stop writing.

[Thebestoftherest]

To quote Brittney Spears: "Oops I did it again..."

S3E6...where to begin. It's as if Discovery is trying to prove my Burnham Fastball Special theory correct, and is succeeding beyond my wildest dreams. I cheered when Science Commando Burnham got stripped of Second Officer status, because let's be real: the dumbass had it coming. She could've revealed that she had intel, and to be fair to Saru, as he said: he should've passed that along. However, due to his justified fear of the Burnham Fastball Special, he did not.

I was not expecting Tilly to advise against Michael, which is going to make for some awkward moments, but you know what? Tilly has proven herself a good friend. She recognizes Burnham's self-destructive behaviors, and is actively working to protect everyone that Burnham isn't thinking about, including herself. As Tilly said, Michael's insubordination could've led to the Federation fleet not trusting their quick-response vessel. Tilly is a spaz, but frankly, she's a good person. "Spaz" is but one characteristic of her character. I find I love Tilly more for making a hard call, both against and on behalf of someone she cares about.

I almost want to gloss over the Mirror Georgiou C-plot that's unfolding, because frankly? It's not the centerpiece of this episode. Yes, Mirror Georgiou is going to do Mirror Georgiou things, and she does them with great aplomb. A bit of action isn't a bad thing, and having the Emerald Chain regret not listening to Burnham's lecture on the longitudinal trends on 23rd century teenage exofemales (Don't mess with Science Commando Burnham, bitch!) was probably going to happen sooner or later. With all that said, though - clearly Georgiou is suppressing lots of things, and has understandable trust issues. I do want to see where it leads...I just can't help but feel a huge gob of schadenfreude at Burnham's demotion. Once again: the dumbass had it coming.

Michael's scene trying to connect to Georgiou was genuinely touching, and I feel is literally her character's best moment in the entire series, bar none. For once she's doing something a real human would do: looking out for someone she loves, without doing something Burnham, fast ball, and/or special.df

Also, the poignant shot at the end with her removing her badge? I'm sorry if I sound hateful, or whatever, but: boo fuckity hoo. You joined Starfleet knowing you'd have to obey a future version of the UCMJ. Starfleet is a military organization. Yeah, you got caught, and I'm sure that Parody!Janeway would lambast her for that as is her idiom, but let's be real: she's throwing a fit. She's not accepting that what she's done, while morally right, was against the rules and harmful to her friends, and had consequences that were inevitable as soon as she left Discovery's shuttlebay. Once again: if she's so hard done, leave Starfleet with your druid boyfriend, or try to help Starfleet in some other capacity. She's got experience as a courier, she's got a support system in Book, as well as the benefit of military training. She can do a lot of good in a "Han Solo" scenario. She doesn't have to restrict herself. Once again, she's being a dumbass, as is her idiom.

Also, Linus teleport spamming was funny. Good job, Linus.

Side note: I'm so taken with the concept of Science Commando Burnham not taking kindly to her delivering a xenoanthropology lecture, that my Parody!Burnham take is basically someone with the Nerd Rage perk from the Fallout series. When she nerd-hulks out, she gains a damage bonus and damage resistance.

Also, I know some of you are saying, "Aah, Asvarduil, but her boyfriend is a D&D druid! How does that fit with her having Fallout game mechanics?" My answer is that this is Star Trek, where logic goes to either die, or be retconned into being assholes.

So they are not acting like that A hole!Kirk from Abbrams Trek was the normal, or a good thing.

[Asvarduil]

They made a huge mistake making Tilly the comic relief. She is on my list of all time most annoying Star Trek characters and easily (for me) takes the crown of being this show's Neelix.

But... as you say... she has the qualities to be a better character and we are now seeing that as the show goes on. Just as Neelix has the qualities to be a better character and we saw that as Voyager went on. Whoever thought that Dunning Kruger and domestic abuser was the right starting path for Neelix needs to stop writing.

So, all this hits on a point that I did a poor job of making earlier. While I criticize the characters, I like to think something I have in common with Chuck is that I judge them on the material in front of us, what they say, what they do. I don't hate any of the characters, as that's a bit extreme for a figment of someone else's imagination.

Additionally, I don't hate the actors, who are trying to play their parts to the best of their abilities, and sometimes in spite of the writing itself. As much criticism as I have for Burnham, I feel this is the scenario that Sonequa Martin-Green and Burnham fall into - the writers are pulling a Janeway on her, in that they're trying for a strong female lead, but either they keep forgetting to put the person before their traits, or they're trying to intentionally write a moron. I think if Burnham were written like Sisko, she'd be a more effective and likable character. Burnham, to be at her best, needs to be someone with clear objectives that they're working towards, but those efforts are influenced by their traits.

You brought up Tilly, and this is precisely the about-face they made with that character. Sure, she's still a spaz, and you know what? That's fine. There's people like that in the real world. Sure, they're not the people you want to spend an extended period of time around, but I do like that for Tilly, they appear to have said, "Ok, she's a young engineering prodigy who got on the command track, she's a genius, but is also a bit of a spaz as a result, but she deeply cares about her crewmates/friends. She wants what's best for them, but she draws the line at actions that will hurt others."

Saru is another great example. He's come a long way from a sentient he-cow that "can sense Death" - he's become a competent, rational leader, who values the people around him, and is trying his best to shoulder a huge responsibility that's the result of assisting Burnham with a few too many of her harebrained Fastball Specials.

Tilly's character is, at least in my opinion, very well defined, and generally has been from midway through Season 1. While she's annoying (I like to compare her to Jester from Critical Role Campaign 2), I don't consider her "The Neelix" - she doesn't ruin every scene she enters. Instead, I argue that Michael does that by way of her callousness, her self-righteousness, and her propensity for decisions that hurt or kill people. You know, just like Neelix and his "survival expertise."

Similarly, Link# made a point a few pages ago that the secondary characters are getting more of those human moments, which helps the story. By telling the crew's stories, and giving them a moment in the sun, not only does it flesh out the world a bit more, it also has the practical effect of diluting the effect the annoying characters have on the plot, as every second of screentime is one less second for an annoying character to do something to alienate part of the audience.

Frankly, I can see myself awarding a DISCO episode a "Burnham Special Moment" for her handing someone a PADD. I'm sure she could find a way a this point to make it annoy me.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

They made a huge mistake making Tilly the comic relief. She is on my list of all time most annoying Star Trek characters and easily (for me) takes the crown of being this show's Neelix.

But... as you say... she has the qualities to be a better character and we are now seeing that as the show goes on. Just as Neelix has the qualities to be a better character and we saw that as Voyager went on. Whoever thought that Dunning Kruger and domestic abuser was the right starting path for Neelix needs to stop writing.

Additionally, I don't hate the actors, who are trying to play their parts to the best of their abilities, and sometimes in spite of the writing itself. As much criticism as I have for Burnham, I feel this is the scenario that Sonequa Martin-Green and Burnham fall into - the writers are pulling a Janeway on her, in that they're trying for a strong female lead, but either they keep forgetting to put the person before their traits, or they're trying to intentionally write a moron. I think if Burnham were written like Sisko, she'd be a more effective and likable character. Burnham, to be at her best, needs to be someone with clear objectives that they're working towards, but those efforts are influenced by their traits.

I don't feel unclear about Burnham's objectives, they seem pretty similar to what we directly see in Kelvinverse Spock.

You brought up Tilly, and this is precisely the about-face they made with that character. Sure, she's still a spaz, and you know what? That's fine. There's people like that in the real world. Sure, they're not the people you want to spend an extended period of time around, but I do like that for Tilly, they appear to have said, "Ok, she's a young engineering prodigy who got on the command track, she's a genius, but is also a bit of a spaz as a result, but she deeply cares about her crewmates/friends. She wants what's best for them, but she draws the line at actions that will hurt others."

Not only that, but she does have a keen interest in the mission. And the scene with her manipulating the million ton asteroid chip off the asteroid was pretty amusing tbph.

[Mabus]

Am I the only one who feels that the 13 episodes this season has, are just not enough to do proper worldbuilding, despite the fact that the show is heavily serialized? We're halfway through and so far not much has happened. I don't even get the feeling that they're a millennium into the future, if anything it feels like they're in some forgotten Federation region where everything went to shit, especially with the writers' fetish for scrap yards and scavenging Trek nostalgia. Even the Earth didn't feel like Earth, it felt like some Brexiting human colony that tried to imitate the actual Federation.

[CharlesPhipps]

Am I the only one who feels that the 13 episodes this season has, are just not enough to do proper worldbuilding, despite the fact that the show is heavily serialized? We're halfway through and so far not much has happened. I don't even get the feeling that they're a millennium into the future, if anything it feels like they're in some forgotten Federation region where everything went to shit, especially with the writers' fetish for scrap yards and scavenging Trek nostalgia. Even the Earth didn't feel like Earth, it felt like some Brexiting human colony that tried to imitate the actual Federation.

Probably why they renewed it for Season 4 that they're filming now.

[Mabus]

Am I the only one who feels that the 13 episodes this season has, are just not enough to do proper worldbuilding, despite the fact that the show is heavily serialized? We're halfway through and so far not much has happened. I don't even get the feeling that they're a millennium into the future, if anything it feels like they're in some forgotten Federation region where everything went to shit, especially with the writers' fetish for scrap yards and scavenging Trek nostalgia. Even the Earth didn't feel like Earth, it felt like some Brexiting human colony that tried to imitate the actual Federation.

Probably why they renewed it for Season 4 that they're filming now.

What I meant is that season 3 is shorter than both season 1 and season 2, and yet the storyline is more complicated than in the previous seasons. Yet for some reasons, TPTB didn't thought that maybe they should either not shorten the season or at least add a couple more episodes. I mean, they practically wasted half this season with stuff that go nowhere (you could literally cram everything important that has happened so far in one episode, cram all character development in like 2, maybe 2.5 episodes, and, if you trim down the fat, the entire important plotlines can be told in like 3 episodes).
If these people need yet another 13ish episode season to tell their damn story, at this rate they'll need another just to wrap everything up. This isn't DS9 where you can take your time to tell the Dominion War story, because you have a bazillion side characters each with their own interesting story, all set in a relative well described and known setting, here there is only one goal (find out who or what caused the Burn) and the side characters are not very well developed (seriously, we're three seasons in and I can't even remember the names of the people on the Discovery bridge let alone any episode where they were fleshed out) or the format (20ish episode per season) allows for plenty of side stories, more or less connected to main plot.
A tight season requires a tight story. Especially when the next seasons keep getting tighter.

[Link8909]

“Scavengers” was okay personally, had some really great character moments, but overall wasn't anything to write home about, I really like the stuff back at Federation Headquarters, them getting used to the new technology was fun and the technology itself is cool and very inventive, the Combadge being an all in one tool is a great way of showing Trek Tech evolving, and I love the refit of Discovery itself with the new interfaces and detached nacelles, the character moments between Stamets and Adira, Stamets and Culber, Georgiou and Burnham, and Tilly were and are always great, and I do like the action itself and seeing what Books ship could do was again very cool and inventive.

Additionally, I don't hate the actors, who are trying to play their parts to the best of their abilities, and sometimes in spite of the writing itself. As much criticism as I have for Burnham, I feel this is the scenario that Sonequa Martin-Green and Burnham fall into - the writers are pulling a Janeway on her, in that they're trying for a strong female lead, but either they keep forgetting to put the person before their traits, or they're trying to intentionally write a moron. I think if Burnham were written like Sisko, she'd be a more effective and likable character. Burnham, to be at her best, needs to be someone with clear objectives that they're working towards, but those efforts are influenced by their traits.

I don't feel unclear about Burnham's objectives, they seem pretty similar to what we directly see in Kelvinverse Spock.

I do get some of what Asvarduil's frustrations with Michael Burnham, however I do understand why she is so determined to uncover the Burn, even if that means defying orders, she and everyone on Discovery sacrificed so much to save the future of the galaxy, only for her to find that future isn't the one she envisioned, and believes the only way for the Federation to truly heal is uncovering the Burn, and has spent the last year adapting to the new future, having to let go of her friends on Discovery, and trying to uncover those mysteries, this and her natural stubbornness and needing to take responsibility, it's easy to see why she would go behind Captain Saru's back not only when that answer is so close, but her only friend during that last year is in danger.

That however doesn't make her actions right, moral right sure as not only did she get her answers, but also saved the lives of Book and the slaves of Hunhau, but disobeying orders is still disobeying orders, and was unnecessary as Admiral Vance said he would have approved the mission anyway as it was a unique opportunity to gather intelligence as he said, and what I like about the ending of this episode is that unlike so many Star Trek characters that disobey orders but are let off the hook because their action resulted in good, there were consequences to Burnham's defiance, and not just a useless reprimand (hello Worf killing a potential candidate for leader of the Klingon Empire*) but a demotion in rank and privileges.

Now going forward will be interesting, I honestly hope that Burnham really takes this to heart, I still want her to uncover the Burn mystery, but I want her to be more open and respectful of the chain of command, and while I'll be fine with what the answer maybe, I do hope that the answer to the Burn is that it was just an accident and that there's no way of reversing it or a big bad to beat or blame, and that the real way to heal the Federation and the galaxy is with the allies and friend that they make in their travels.

*Edit: Then I remember Worf years later killed the actual leader of the Klingon Empire with no consequences! How did he get away with that!?!