Reaching Out Across the Aisle

[Draco Dracul]

I was a relatively conservative agnostic going into college I came out of college a fairly liberal atheist, but I've became far more leftwing since finding religion. I do think that deeply effects my ability to see even the possibility of common ground because I think that anyone that voted for Trump needs to repent lest they be damned to hell. It also made me lose all respect for the religious right, who while I had few political agreements with I generally considered to be people of conviction with a fundamental philosophy guiding them, but then they chose to back the embodiment of the seven deadly sins for the sake of power.

I'm personally consider myself pro-life, but feel that rather than ban abortion we should expand social services, increase sex education, and fix the foster system so that no one would choose to have an elective abortion. This, along with the repeated oposittion to actual healthcare and social generally makes me think of most "pro-lifers" as liars that are merely pro birth as they seemingly don't give a fuck once ths child is actually born.

I also feel that Christian values are fundamentally incompatible with capitalism, which by its very nature empowers the powerful and stomps on the meek.

I also think part of why the Republican politicians never give anything, even as Republican policy becomes increasingly unpopular is that they have a massive structural advantage in every part of federal power. In the senate due to the massive advantage in the wind belt, in the presidency due to the electoral college as there has literally never been a Democrat to win the electoral college but lose the popular vote, and in the house due to both uneven representation due to the cap as well as the fact that many democratic states have independent commissions draw their districts, but most Republican states gerrymander to hell and back.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Nevix, your position on Obama is indicative of how far the gap is between us. Speaking as a leftist, we hated how much Obama was compromising. We saw him as a president more committed to some image of Bipartisanship than to achieving legislative goals. I don't think he really got much done until he started going around the senate with things like executive orders.

On the subject of charter schools, nine times out of ten I think they are bad. I see them as a way to siphon resources from already struggling public schools into what are essential private schools, so some parents can get their kids out of the gross public schools and leave the rest of the student body out to dry. If public schools suck, then you should fix the public schools. A good first step would be funding public schools equally, instead of with the tax dollars from their respective zip codes, so that all the students can get the same chance.
That said...there is one charter school I have worked with in the course of my career. The head of the school board in that district got into a fight with another school board member, while the students watched, and one of kids filmed it. The fight was so bad that the school board members had to go to the hospital. And the head of the school board...bragged about it.

That said, I still see charter schools as a radical, short-term measure for serious cases, and if any public official advocates for charter schools, I will look into their list of campaign donors very carefully.

[Nealithi]

On the subject of charter schools, nine times out of ten I think they are bad. I see them as a way to siphon resources from already struggling public schools into what are essential private schools, so some parents can get their kids out of the gross public schools and leave the rest of the student body out to dry. If public schools suck, then you should fix the public schools. A good first step would be funding public schools equally, instead of with the tax dollars from their respective zip codes, so that all the students can get the same chance.
That said...there is one charter school I have worked with in the course of my career. The head of the school board in that district got into a fight with another school board member, while the students watched, and one of kids filmed it. The fight was so bad that the school board members had to go to the hospital. And the head of the school board...bragged about it.

That said, I still see charter schools as a radical, short-term measure for serious cases, and if any public official advocates for charter schools, I will look into their list of campaign donors very carefully.

So I want to come in on this one. I do not believe the entire problem with schools is how much money they bring in. The local school to my house and one I went to as a child asked for over a million dollars to fix their roof to better accommodate the art room kiln. And install actual air conditioning. The problem? They only needed 10k and had it already. But decided to see what else they could get. Same school discontinued the music program. And used the savings to buy the superintendent's mother a house.
A nearby struggling school in a poor city. Rhymes with Hamden. Had a home ec teacher plan out lessons and foods her students would make. Bought the groceries then sat in her office leaving her students to fend for themselves. Then took all the groceries home for herself.

With examples like this and more than a few more from business points of view. I do not think we need more money off the bat. It might come to that. Say every person pays a school tax, but instead of going to the town it goes to the state to be evenly distributed. However I think before such wealth redistribution we need better oversight on the spending.

As for charter schools. Since every version of these I hear about has them as essentially private schools. I am against them as they do not have to teach common information. The disparity in what can be learned from school to school is already frightening. Removing some of the public school controls could be terrible.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I think more funding and better oversight pretty much go hand in hand.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

However much you distrust the admin in place, leaky ceilings and textbook shortages won't be solved without funds.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Apparently as of 2013, California's state funding schedule has been amended to be a little more progressively slanted.

California public k-12 schools were funded 58% by state, 32% by county property taxes, and 9% by federal government.

[Nevix]

Nevix, your position on Obama is indicative of how far the gap is between us. Speaking as a leftist, we hated how much Obama was compromising. We saw him as a president more committed to some image of Bipartisanship than to achieving legislative goals. I don't think he really got much done until he started going around the senate with things like executive orders.

On the subject of charter schools, nine times out of ten I think they are bad. I see them as a way to siphon resources from already struggling public schools into what are essential private schools, so some parents can get their kids out of the gross public schools and leave the rest of the student body out to dry. If public schools suck, then you should fix the public schools. A good first step would be funding public schools equally, instead of with the tax dollars from their respective zip codes, so that all the students can get the same chance.
That said...there is one charter school I have worked with in the course of my career. The head of the school board in that district got into a fight with another school board member, while the students watched, and one of kids filmed it. The fight was so bad that the school board members had to go to the hospital. And the head of the school board...bragged about it.

That said, I still see charter schools as a radical, short-term measure for serious cases, and if any public official advocates for charter schools, I will look into their list of campaign donors very carefully.

And there's the perspective difference.

Every "compromise" Obama made during his later six years benefitted primarily democrat causes, with the republicans of the time giving more and more ground to maintain an appearance of bipartisanship while actually capitulating and ignoring both the people, and their own promises.

The worst was the budget battles as the years wore on, where the republicans of the time were essentially giving Obama EVERYTHING he wanted, and he still refused to sign a proper budget bill.

To the other side, Obama maintained a veneer of wanting cooperation and bipartisanship, but governed in a "My way or the highway" manner, even with many in his own party.



As for schools?

Public. Schools. F******. SUCK.

And my anger here is directed wholly at the schools I've dealt with and seen personally.

The public grade school/elementary school I went to? One, MAYBE two teachers actually cared beyond the basics. The rest... didn't. One teacher, because I didn't do my homework, wouldn't call on me in class and eventually said "Well Nevix if you're not going to participate in class by doing your homework then I'm not going to let you participate in class by calling on you!"

One teacher arranged a Parent Teacher meeting, which my mother had to spend a day of vacation time to be able to attend, and then cancelled the meeting at the last minute.

During a field day, another teacher, after I GOT HIT IN THE FACE WITH A SOCCER BALL AND MIGHT HAVE HAD A CONCUSSION, told me to walk up a rather long flight of stone steps and find the vice principle ALONE.

F******. ALONE.

When I could have had a concussion and fallen on those stairs.

I was lucky that I got dizzy at the top of the stairs and was able to sit down there, waiting out the rest of the field day.


The high school in my hometown? The principle removed ALL special honors that the students gained, forcing every single student to LOOK the same.


I. Don't. Want. To. Fund. The. System. That. Creates. Schools. Like. That.



But setting aside my personal hatred of public schools:

Money hasn't fixed the problems of public schools. Many schools get over 10,000 per student, and still can't pay their teachers better or supply the students properly, and still end up with failing scores for students and kids falling through the gaps.

Charter schools ARE public schools, funded from the same source, but employing a different administration structure. And if public schools can't keep up, then we should just shut them and open more charter schools.

People line up for LOTTERIES so their kids MIGHT have a chance at a good education in a Charter School...

But various politicians get lobbied to block building new Charter Schools, despite the demand.

So it falls to dumb luck, instead of recognizing that the public schools are broken due to the bureaucracy, and using a new system that works.



EDIT: As an aside to the "Obama/Trump" voter musings/questionings:

The most common reason I have seen for people to switch from Obama to Trump is disappointment and disillusionment. They heard the promises that Barack Obama made, and were disappointed that he kept so few of them.

[Nevix]

I also feel that Christian values are fundamentally incompatible with capitalism, which by its very nature empowers the powerful and stomps on the meek.

"Capitalism" is freedom to buy, sell, and create as you want/need to, with the only restrictions needed being those prohibiting monopolies, worker abuse, and other such abuses of people.

It is not the free market itself that centers power, but the lack of enforcement of antitrust laws, and government regulations that choke off smaller businesses.

As for Christianity, people quote Matthew 19:24 "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

But they forget the next two verses:

Matthew 19:25-26 "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."



The righteous rich man, in another chapter, only gave half of his wealth away, forgave all ill gained debts, and gave that half of his wealth to those he'd freed, those he'd wronged, and those who needed it.


The Bible/God's Word also constantly asks us to CHOOSE to be better/Godly people.


Communism and socialism stifle freedom, giving people no choice but to obey the state. Cronyism (typically misnamed as "Crony Capitalism") has enough control and interference to undermine the free marker aspects, due to always having people who gain advantages because they're connected.

A wide variety of other systems are just variations on a free market system, with varying degrees of limited regulation and control.



Free markets are the most compatible with Christianity.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

With Obama, I'd ask for specific policy examples, but I'm not sure that would really change anything, since we have such fundamentally different perceptions of that administration.

I'm not arguing that public schools don't suck. I'm saying that charter schools are, at best, papering over the cracks. You mentioned families are lining up for a lottery to get into charter schools, right? That's not a good thing. Why should a roll of the dice determine who gets decent education? If everyone went to charter schools, then they would just be the new public schools. If you stick with the charter school system, you're diverting funds so that some of the kids get a decent education while the rest can go hang.
Everything you describe, in terms of a shitty school experience? My partner went through that level of bullshit at Sacred Heart, a private catholic school. They weren't even allowed to carry inhalers around for asthma, they had to leave those with the nurse's office, which was often very far from their class. So don't tell me that cruelty, apathy, and routine abuse are just a public school problem.
I'm saying that we need to fix the problems instead of just diverting them.

Re Obama Trump voters, the funny thing is, they aren't the only ones who are disillusioned. My Communist friend voted for Obama the first time around, and Obama was the thing got him to give up on the Democratic party altogether. He didn't even vote this year because he couldn't morally stomach supporting any of the candidates on offer.

Capitalism, oogh, this might take a while to unpack. The short version is that I read a science fiction story about an alien culture where everything was assigned a fixed monetary value. One profession in that culture was the Death Master. Every day, a Death Master would come up to you and you had to pay him a set fee for the privilege of living. If you couldn't pay, he would, legally and with full state sanction, kill you. That alien culture was capitalism shorn of all pretenses.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

To be more specific, Leviticus 23:22 runs counter to capitalism. Under capitalism, you not only reap to the corners of the field and gather gleaning from the harvest, but you burn or poison what is left to prevent the poor and the foreigner from taking it, and if they manage to scrounge a single intact sheaf of wheat from the ashes of the fire, you charge them with theft.