Wrath of Khan discussion

[Beastro]

I always find it interesting that the less control gene Roddenberry has over star trek the better the content tends to be.

Roddenberry's strength was his world building and tone setting. Like a general should have left the lesser affairs to junior officers. Either that or he stepped down and allowed himself to be directed.

Even saying that, nothing is mentioned of the influence of everyone else that were as crucial to Star Trek as he was. I keep seeing it mentioned how big the influence of Gene Coon was, but I haven't see anything from SF Debris or anyone else that directly goes into such the subject. All that's usually said is the heart of Trek, especially its characters personalities, were the result of Coon's influence as well as the emphasis on flawed, yet striving humanity.

I'd like to see that looked into with a bit of detail, because from what I know of Roddenberry's time writing for Have Gun Will Travel, those things are exactly what he did. You can watch those episodes he wrote and feel how similar they are to Trek based solely upon the witty banter and the interplay of idealism and flawed yet striving character building that TOS was famous for.

Examples for anyone willing to peek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpVTkbblsYw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNevucT52U

[Deledrius]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDB4qB ... 9v5kk3rgTQ

He has an alternate site where he hosts the videos that he's afraid might get the channel banned. He first made references to it in the Jurassic Park video.

Currently there's only a couple videos up on it publicly, though stuff on the site he links directly and I guess there's some filter for invites only or something.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDB4qB ... 9v5kk3rgTQ

Blue is serious analysis using still images that are unlikely to be flagged, red is snarky full video jokey.

Thanks, both of you. Apparently I am already following that one as well. I didn't realize it was all the same as the ones posted here on the main site, so it's just mostly a back-end difference. Makes sense. I was worried I was missing videos!

[griffeytrek]

I think this remains my absolute favorite of all of Chuck's videos. His analysis of Wrath of Khan just so well illustrates just how it's not just a good Trek story, or even a good Story Story. But a remarkably well crafted movie. Something rarely seen. Every single frame of this movie has meaning in service to the story. Every word of dialogue. Everything in the background. adds layers to the overall whole. It really is remarkable once you see it. And sadly it is something that could almost never be accomplished in a major Hollywood Tentpole movie these days. I think perhaps the last to really pull it off to this extent using an existing franchise was Captain America The Winter Soldier. And I suspect that that was only possible because the bigwigs were so focused on The Avengers that they weren't really paying as much attention to what the Russo Brother's were pulling off on the expected smaller CA film.

I would love to see Chuck do one more dive into Khan, perhaps contrasting why this works and the horrid remake Into Darkness doesn't. How Khan is an "End of the Voyage" story and can never really work as a "Begining of the Voyages" one. How it is about facing up to our age, our mortality, our mistakes as we face the back halves of our lives.

[Nevix]

This is a great review of a great movie. I can add nothing to it beyond compliments for the successes of both the review and movie.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I do love how this was the first truly nuanced piece of Star Trek that came about.

[Beastro]

I do love how this was the first truly nuanced piece of Star Trek that came about.

Being a DS9 fan I'd say that show was made in its spirit, just as it was made in the spirit of human flawed-ness that made TOS so endearing (and strained TMP and early TNG).

Any future reformation of Trek I think will come from reconnecting to it.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I do love how this was the first truly nuanced piece of Star Trek that came about.

Being a DS9 fan I'd say that show was made in its spirit, just as it was made in the spirit of human flawed-ness that made TOS so endearing (and strained TMP and early TNG).

Any future reformation of Trek I think will come from reconnecting to it.

Wow I have never put that together. I'm more of a Voyager fan which fits the tones of the Kobayashi Maru theme more. Then aside from that I'm all about the ship battles, and this one I feel is just a bit slow and/or short though is original and is effective as they come as they come.

[Riedquat]

The mark of a good story with good performances is that it can require such a stupid contrivance to set it off, but it's all so enjoyable you barely even notice. In this case, it's Starfleet landing on Ceti Alpha V when they meant to land on Ceti Alpha VI. How do you do that!?!

Best just to wince at it and move on, there's no possible explanation that'll ever be convincing (even ignoring the mistaken identity issue just how does a planet explode, and just how does that affect another planet in the same system, moving it in to what is presumably the same orbit and possibly even the same position in the orbit, and not at the very least turn the surface into molten lava in the process?)

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Or you know it could have just did what it did.

[Link8909]

Really enjoyed this more serious look at The Wrath of Khan, while this isn't my personal top Star Trek film, it's still a great film.

I do love how this was the first truly nuanced piece of Star Trek that came about.

I sort of see what you mean, while The Original Series did have nuanced episodes that still hold up today, The Wrath of Khan's overall dark and melancholy tone serves the themes of the film, while the series's general 60's Sci-fi vibe could lead people to gloss over those nuanced episodes.

Being a DS9 fan I'd say that show was made in its spirit, just as it was made in the spirit of human flawed-ness that made TOS so endearing (and strained TMP and early TNG).

Any future reformation of Trek I think will come from reconnecting to it.

Agreed, I like when Star Trek shows that humanity isn't perfect but trying to be better, and not only was Wrath of Khan willing to show Admiral Kirk being flawed like with him not going taking Saavik's advice to raise shields, and his arc of him getting older and feeling vulnerable about it, but showing that Kirk was now older not only showed that imperfect part of humanity, but properly showed that the Star Trek universe was a breathing world that changed and evolved, that characters weren't suck in the same places doing the same things for years at a time and never changing.

When Star Trek does this like with here and Deep Space Nine, it really feels like a story that's meaningful, with drama, conflict, and consequences, with something to say, while with things like the first season of The Next Generation that shows everyone is perfect and there's no conflicts, it feels less like a story and more like a brochure.