B5: Severed Dreams

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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

Post by G-Man »

MadAmosMalone wrote:Gawd! I feel like the old geezeroid here. I was in my late 20s and early 30s when this show came out. I loved it then, love it now. First ep I ever saw was Grail,
"Grail?" That episode was truly outrageous. Truly, truly, truly outrageous. ;)

I liked Delenn's speech in "Severed Dreams," too. I sort of rephrased it in my head:

"Don't make us attack you!"

"Why not? Only one human has ever defeated a Minbari fleet. Is he with you? Oh, wait, he's on my side."

It reminds me of Lucas Fox's speech in The Dark Knight to the guy trying to blackmail Bruce Wayne.
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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

Post by Nevix »

G-Man wrote:
MadAmosMalone wrote:Gawd! I feel like the old geezeroid here. I was in my late 20s and early 30s when this show came out. I loved it then, love it now. First ep I ever saw was Grail,
"Grail?" That episode was truly outrageous. Truly, truly, truly outrageous. ;)

I liked Delenn's speech in "Severed Dreams," too. I sort of rephrased it in my head:

"Don't make us attack you!"

"Why not? Only one human has ever defeated a Minbari fleet. Is he with you? Oh, wait, he's on my side."

It reminds me of Lucas Fox's speech in The Dark Knight to the guy trying to blackmail Bruce Wayne.
Ironically, my roommate hates that speech for how flowery and eloquent it is.

I think it's a great in character, calm, and dignified way of saying: "Please don't commit suicide on my ship's guns. I'd rather not kill anyone today."

Although the second half of my translation could also be "Too many people have died today. Don't throw your crewmen on the pyre too."
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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

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Trinary wrote:
Yeah, you're probably smarter than I am for that. But I'm a history major and I can't help sinking my teeth into things when I feel like there's more to add or flesh out.

For what it's worth, I really enjoy reading your posts that analyse that stuff. Please keep it up, they are part of the reason this forum is so great :-)! Promoting Discussion and thinking about the Ideas, not just the mere SciFi ;)
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Winter
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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

Post by Winter »

Huh, over course of 24 hours I have seen the death of Hiroshi, BS, and Sato, Star Wars Rebels, die via ramming their star ships into the enemies to help save the day.
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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

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Yaku wrote:For what it's worth, I really enjoy reading your posts that analyse that stuff. Please keep it up, they are part of the reason this forum is so great :-)! Promoting Discussion and thinking about the Ideas, not just the mere SciFi ;)
Thanks, that's really nice to hear. However, some history is still so politically charged that it's liable to quickly descend into a flame war. That's why I consciously decided to not comment on the Enterprise's "Storm Front" thread despite some of the history brought up in the thread being wildly off.
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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

Post by Madner Kami »

One can't right wrongs, if one does not speak up. What people then do with the spoken word, is their business and not your responsibilty or burden.
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Yaku
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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

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Trinary wrote:
Yaku wrote:For what it's worth, I really enjoy reading your posts that analyse that stuff. Please keep it up, they are part of the reason this forum is so great :-)! Promoting Discussion and thinking about the Ideas, not just the mere SciFi ;)
Thanks, that's really nice to hear. However, some history is still so politically charged that it's liable to quickly descend into a flame war. That's why I consciously decided to not comment on the Enterprise's "Storm Front" thread despite some of the history brought up in the thread being wildly off.
It seems anything related to that era would better be avoided, since it always ends in really emotional and passionate Discussions, with some intriguing use of very flowery language, to say the least ;-). It is a pity though, since that is a rather interesting topic, wildy interwoven with psychology, Moral and Ethics, i.e. what makes Humans able to behave in such inhumane ways? And many more questions, that Star Trek also tackles in many episodes.

But for your sanity's sake, I would still argue that topic is best avoided :lol: Still hope you post about other History related stuff on episodes that warrant it. History is just really interesting, and people that know their history are cool in my book!
Gul Dukat: War is such thirsty work. Don't you agree?
Weyoun: Perhaps if you didn't talk so much, your throat wouldn't get so dry.
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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

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Yaku wrote:But for your sanity's sake, I would still argue that topic is best avoided :lol: Still hope you post about other History related stuff on episodes that warrant it. History is just really interesting, and people that know their history are cool in my book!
Yeah. Sadly I've learned that some things can't be discussed in a rational manner and it isn't worth getting worked up about comments left on the internet. Obsessing over it does you no good and it's all too-rare that a well-thought out argument will actually change someone's opinion in a forum or chat room. Besides, it's an episode about time-traveling alien space Nazis. If you want a sensible discussion, perhaps try some other topic...

But thanks again for your thoughts. As long as SF Debris reviews things that bring up history, or he works in the historical elements himself, I'd be happy to offer my two cents about what I know.

To get back to Babylon 5 and politics and history--you ever notice how the name of just about every damn government in the show is a lie?

Earth Alliance -- Alliance implies a certain level of equality between various partners. Earth is very much the hegemonic influence. There's a reason why Mars, Proxima 7, Beta Durani, Orion 3, etc. are called colonies. It's not just a nickname. Marcus' backstory makes it clear that they are very much colonies of Earth with limited local-government and are subordinate entirely to Earth Gov decisions. So calling it an alliance is a crock.

Centauri Republic -- It's ruled by a hereditary Emperor. That is LITERALLY the exact OPPOSITE of a republic. The definition when you type in Republic is "a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch." or "a group with a certain equality between its members." Now you can argue that the Centauri have a very Roman-esque feel to them, having many gods, loving wine and revelry and maybe the Republic/Emperor thing is a reference to how the Roman Republic became an Empire ... but I can't see high born people in the Roman Empire, noting the coronation of the 12th Emperor or whatever, commenting about how they're a "republican" (lowercase r) as Londo once did. And he's from a prominent noble family so that makes no sense either.

Minbari Federation
-- This one is a bit of a stretch too. Yeah, it gets mentioned in passing that there are some weaker planets or races who are part of the Minbari Federation and rely on them for protection ... but it's barely even worth mentioning. Why have that be the case at all? We never see them, never hear these races get named. The most I think we get is mentioning that the Stribe once attacked a Minbari-allied world and got beaten up for it; and when some of these Minbari protected worlds are attacked by the Drakh, and Delenn takes the White Star fleet out to investigate. But it could've been some random League world being attacked in both cases, so what's even the point? And even if you really wanted to have other races involved with the Minbari, it's a federation in the same way that Earth is an alliance. There's only one power calling the shots there.

Narn Regime
-- This says absolutely nothing about them. ANY Narn government is going to technically be a Narn regime. You could have a revolution on Narn where EVERY political leader is killed or replaced, have them change every aspect of Narn society, revamp its political, moral and ideological considerations, lead Narn in a totally different direction--and it would STILL be as much of a Narn Regime as the old one.

Vorlon Empire
-- Probably the most fittingly named of them all. But since the Vorlons, most of the time (save when the Shadows are awake), are pretty isolationist and don't get involved with other races affairs you could probably argue this one too. There's nothing logically that'd really disqualifies it .. but when I think 'Empire,' I usually don't think of "that power that generally leaves everyone alone and doesn't like to get directly involved."

League of Non-Aligned Worlds -- ... Aligned or non-aligned with WHO exactly? They're aligned with each other (barely) but that really doesn't say anything about this League or its member worlds. There was a non-alignment movement from the 1950s on involving African, Asian and Latin American countries who didn't want to be (totally) aligned with the USA or USSR, but that situation really doesn't exist in B5. It's not a reference to the Vorlons or Shadows since they don't know about how the two races are competing for influence, so the name makes no sense. Plus, they were pretty anti-Shadow and pro-Vorlon before the Vorlons started vaping planets. So the name still doesn't work. They should just change the name to "...and the rest."

I'm convinced, they just wanted to have as many different names for political entities as they could without reusing them (and the Narn got the short straw). If you check out some of the "League" members, this only confirms that impression: Drazi Freehold, Brakiri Syndicracy, Abbai Matriarchate, Gaim Intelligence, Hyach Grand Council of Elders, Markab Confederacy, The pak'ma'ra, Ventuki Conglomerate, Androma Republic, Sh'lassen Triumvirate plus the Drakh Entire. Not ONE name for a government is used twice.
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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

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Trinary wrote:
Vorlon Empire
-- Probably the most fittingly named of them all. But since the Vorlons, most of the time (save when the Shadows are awake), are pretty isolationist and don't get involved with other races affairs you could probably argue this one too. There's nothing logically that'd really disqualifies it .. but when I think 'Empire,' I usually don't think of "that power that generally leaves everyone alone and doesn't like to get directly involved."
Have to disagree there. Plenty of Chinese (and for most of its history Japan's) empires have been extremely isolationist.
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Re: B5: Severed Dreams

Post by Trinary »

TGLS wrote:
Trinary wrote: Have to disagree there. Plenty of Chinese (and for most of its history Japan's) empires have been extremely isolationist.


Yeah, I know historically it's not inaccurate, but in modern culture--especially science-fiction--the term empire has a certain connotation to it [cue Imperial March] that the Vorlons (generally) didn't fit. Though maybe you could argue it was foreshadowing that this aloof and mysterious race was really just a domineering as the name Empire implied.
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