Star Trek Discovery: Season Three

[Asvarduil]

I do love how Saru and Tilly are in-universe just done with Michael's bullshit.

Yes, yes, yes!

Tilly asking Burnham questions like, "What would I have done if you didn't come back?" was good friendship, and a brilliant moment. Also, Book calling Michael on her messianic complex was good too. It seems like, at least for the moment, it took getting bitch-slapped by Saru down to just Science Officer, has made Michael begin to contemplate her life choices, which is good. I've vocally criticised her character on this thread, but I want that character to grow and become better. I hope that the writers can pull Burnham's head out of her ass, sincerely. I want a better Burnham than we started with.

Additionally, the bit in the middle with Burnham's mother calling her out on her inherent dishonesty...chef's kiss. I think that DISCO is better when it addresses Michael's tendencies towards stupidity.

Reunion III/S3 E7 was also great, because Book's place as the resident Druid was...helpful to Burnham. He voiced all the thoughts she wouldn't allow herself, which in turn allowed her to start having epiphanies. While I have no issue making the "Book is a 6 Druid" joke, I can't bring myself to level the same degree of acid at him as I have Burnham, because he's frankly a better person. He has convictions, he has flaws, but he thinks about his actions.

Also, Tilly becoming Saru's XO? I have to agree with his thought process. The rest of the crew struggled; Tilly thrived, despite her pain. Tilly has less management experience than most other officers, but once again as Saru said: traditional experience basically doesn't apply, DISCO is in crazy town. Besides, it helps Tilly reach the height of her character, which only helps the story. I'm all for better, and more, Tilly. In any event, Tilly has been the heart of the crew since at least Season 2. She deserves the position and the street cred.

The Nevarran philosophical trial (T'kal M'tet?) was interesting. I like that Picard's plot points are bearing out in Discovery, and think that the Sisters were an inspired addition to the Nevar plot. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and having the Sisters who bind themselves to lost causes - which, requiring Burnham to make a logical, accurate formal argument most certainly is.

Burnham's mom forcing her to be honest in the T'kal M'tet was...probably the best moment of the series so far for Burnham. Burnham not bullshitting everyone was great to see. Lastly, Burnham realizing her self-important crusade could doom a world, and withdrawing...I hope that's the beginning of a new Burnham. I really don't want to have to keep decrying with evidence the stupidity of Burnham's actions. With that said, I expect to do just that. After all, she claimed she learned her lesson back in Season 2. Much like Tilly and Saru, I've had it with her bullshit.

We deserve a better protagonist than that, Sonequa Martin-Green deserves a better quality character than that, and Burnham the character could stand to be less-reviled.

[Captain Crimson]

I do love how Saru and Tilly are in-universe just done with Michael's bullshit.

Audience surrogates, perhaps?

[CharlesPhipps]

They have rewritten Michael's character from Spock surrogate to Mariner and, you know what, that's better for what they want--which is a big ass devil may care rule breaking antihero. I also think its not a terrible direction to take her after she realizes that she LIKES being the Rogue Cop That Breaks All The RulesTM.

The original lesson from the mutiny was supposed to be, "I should have trutsed my superior" but the new lesson taken is, "I should have mutineed better!"

[Link8909]

I do love how Saru and Tilly are in-universe just done with Michael's bullshit.

Yes, yes, yes!

Tilly asking Burnham questions like, "What would I have done if you didn't come back?" was good friendship, and a brilliant moment. Also, Book calling Michael on her messianic complex was good too. It seems like, at least for the moment, it took getting bitch-slapped by Saru down to just Science Officer, has made Michael begin to contemplate her life choices, which is good. I've vocally criticised her character on this thread, but I want that character to grow and become better. I hope that the writers can pull Burnham's head out of her ass, sincerely. I want a better Burnham than we started with.

Additionally, the bit in the middle with Burnham's mother calling her out on her inherent dishonesty...chef's kiss. I think that DISCO is better when it addresses Michael's tendencies towards stupidity.

Absolutely agree with all this, I'm fine with characters being mavericks who's actions can cause more harm than good, as long as they're called out on it, and there are consequences, which I'm so happy that Star Trek Discovery does this and more, it's somewhat of a personal annoying trope of Star Trek that characters defy orders and at best get a slap on the wrist for it, and I like that's never been the case for Discovery.

And I like that this has been a deliberate part of Michael's character arc, and that she was now forced to confront this personal conflict not only by her actions last episode, but by her friends, and eventually by her own mum, it was also great that it was thanks to the Qowat Milat order of absolute candor that this turning point happened, as Michael wasn't being honest with herself.

Also, Tilly becoming Saru's XO? I have to agree with his thought process. The rest of the crew struggled; Tilly thrived, despite her pain. Tilly has less management experience than most other officers, but once again as Saru said: traditional experience basically doesn't apply, DISCO is in crazy town. Besides, it helps Tilly reach the height of her character, which only helps the story. I'm all for better, and more, Tilly. In any event, Tilly has been the heart of the crew since at least Season 2. She deserves the position and the street cred.

Same, I love that they followed up on Tilly reporting Michael to Captain Saru last episode, that Tilly herself has doubts and even questions whether she is ready or deserving of the position, and I hope that this is becomes permanent with a promotion, Tilly's background arc of wanting to become a Captain has always been an element of the series, and I was worried that dream of hers was lost with them going into the future, so I'm super happy that this is continuing on, while I liked Michael when she took command in "Die Trying", I feel that her role of Science nerd is better than Number One, and as you said, Tilly has always been the heart of the crew, and makes sense that she now officially represents them, and I love that they all gave her that support at the end.

The Nevarran philosophical trial (T'kal M'tet?) was interesting. I like that Picard's plot points are bearing out in Discovery, and think that the Sisters were an inspired addition to the Nevar plot. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and having the Sisters who bind themselves to lost causes - which, requiring Burnham to make a logical, accurate formal argument most certainly is.

Overall it's great that Spock's unification did come to fruition, even if they're are still kerfuffles, and I liked the incorporation of the Qowat Milat not only lore wise that they help bridge this gap after Spock, but as I said earlier this absolute candor finally allowed Michael to be honest with herself.

Burnham's mom forcing her to be honest in the T'kal M'tet was...probably the best moment of the series so far for Burnham. Burnham not bullshitting everyone was great to see. Lastly, Burnham realizing her self-important crusade could doom a world, and withdrawing...I hope that's the beginning of a new Burnham. I really don't want to have to keep decrying with evidence the stupidity of Burnham's actions. With that said, I expect to do just that. After all, she claimed she learned her lesson back in Season 2. Much like Tilly and Saru, I've had it with her bullshit.

We deserve a better protagonist than that, Sonequa Martin-Green deserves a better quality character than that, and Burnham the character could stand to be less-reviled.

Indeed, I like that Captain Saru and Commander Tilly don't put up with Michael's maverick tendency's, and that the series is deliberately pointing out these contradictions and making this an arc that she must lean and grow from, and it does feel like this is a turning point where we'll see less of these Burnham Fastball SpecialTM.

Overall I really enjoyed “Unification III”, a great character episode for Michael not only for her personal conflict of whether she belongs on Discovery, but giving her some closure with her mum and Spock, an interesting delve into Vulcan and Romulan lore in the 32nd century, with some great character moments for both now Number One Tilly, and Captain Saru with his discussions about the Federation with President T’Rina that helped seal the deal of getting that data on SB-19.

[Asvarduil]

Overall I really enjoyed “Unification III”, a great character episode for Michael not only for her personal conflict of whether she belongs on Discovery, but giving her some closure with her mum and Spock, an interesting delve into Vulcan and Romulan lore in the 32nd century, with some great character moments for both now Number One Tilly, and Captain Saru with his discussions about the Federation with President T’Rina that helped seal the deal of getting that data on SB-19.

Yeah, I think that Discovery in general has made a reasonably bold move: discussing the disunity in the former Federation. The plot point that SB-19 was "the final straw" was interesting; clearly a number of member worlds were displeased with the things the Federation was doing before its fall, and Nevar was just one planet that had issues.

Of course, we've seen other planets like Earth and Trill that didn't appear to have misgivings about a return of the Federation. I feel like that's an opportunity for the worldbuilding in S3 DISCO, and a chance for the Federation to learn from its mistakes.

...while I liked Michael when she took command in "Die Trying", I feel that her role of Science nerd is better than Number One, and as you said, Tilly has always been the heart of the crew, and makes sense that she now officially represents them, and I love that they all gave her that support at the end.

To be fair, "Science Commando Burnham" simply has a better ring than "Executive Assistant Commando Burnham".

[clearspira]

I do love how Saru and Tilly are in-universe just done with Michael's bullshit.

Yes, yes, yes!

Tilly asking Burnham questions like, "What would I have done if you didn't come back?" was good friendship, and a brilliant moment. Also, Book calling Michael on her messianic complex was good too. It seems like, at least for the moment, it took getting bitch-slapped by Saru down to just Science Officer, has made Michael begin to contemplate her life choices, which is good. I've vocally criticised her character on this thread, but I want that character to grow and become better. I hope that the writers can pull Burnham's head out of her ass, sincerely. I want a better Burnham than we started with.

Additionally, the bit in the middle with Burnham's mother calling her out on her inherent dishonesty...chef's kiss. I think that DISCO is better when it addresses Michael's tendencies towards stupidity.

Reunion III/S3 E7 was also great, because Book's place as the resident Druid was...helpful to Burnham. He voiced all the thoughts she wouldn't allow herself, which in turn allowed her to start having epiphanies. While I have no issue making the "Book is a 6 Druid" joke, I can't bring myself to level the same degree of acid at him as I have Burnham, because he's frankly a better person. He has convictions, he has flaws, but he thinks about his actions.

Also, Tilly becoming Saru's XO? I have to agree with his thought process. The rest of the crew struggled; Tilly thrived, despite her pain. Tilly has less management experience than most other officers, but once again as Saru said: traditional experience basically doesn't apply, DISCO is in crazy town. Besides, it helps Tilly reach the height of her character, which only helps the story. I'm all for better, and more, Tilly. In any event, Tilly has been the heart of the crew since at least Season 2. She deserves the position and the street cred.

The Nevarran philosophical trial (T'kal M'tet?) was interesting. I like that Picard's plot points are bearing out in Discovery, and think that the Sisters were an inspired addition to the Nevar plot. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and having the Sisters who bind themselves to lost causes - which, requiring Burnham to make a logical, accurate formal argument most certainly is.

Burnham's mom forcing her to be honest in the T'kal M'tet was...probably the best moment of the series so far for Burnham. Burnham not bullshitting everyone was great to see. Lastly, Burnham realizing her self-important crusade could doom a world, and withdrawing...I hope that's the beginning of a new Burnham. I really don't want to have to keep decrying with evidence the stupidity of Burnham's actions. With that said, I expect to do just that. After all, she claimed she learned her lesson back in Season 2. Much like Tilly and Saru, I've had it with her bullshit.

We deserve a better protagonist than that, Sonequa Martin-Green deserves a better quality character than that, and Burnham the character could stand to be less-reviled.

Frankly, I could write an essay regarding just how terribly executed so many 21st century female characters are in comparison to what we had in the 20th. For some reason, writers today seem to think that STRONG FEMALE PROTAGONIST means someone who is good at everything of consequence, has the universe revolve around her, and has flaws only on paper in that they come up once or twice but ultimately do not hinder her goals.

The thing is, that shit ain't interesting. I could unearth Rey again, but I won't, because I actually have a better example to back up my statements: Mulan the cartoon vs Mulan the live action film. I may be the only one here that has seen both but there are some great side-by-side comparisons on Youtube.

But to TL;DW this: Cartoon!Mulan starts out as just an ordinary girl. A bit tomboyish but not exaggeratedly so. When she dresses up as a man to go off to war, she is no better or worse than any of the men around her and slowly over time grows to become a great warrior and earns the respect of her peers.
The message being: ''anyone, man or woman, can achieve their goals as long as they work hard.''

Film!Mulan literally starts the film with the powers of a Jedi. She can jump buildings, move things with her mind, and is such a natural at fighting that she was pretty much an expert by the time that she was six.
The message now becoming: ''anyone, man or woman, can achieve their goals as long as they are born with midichlorians.''

Basically, to loop this back to Discovery, I think that that several high profile failures in recent years of these films led by these perfect female characters (Ghostbusters, Charlie's Angels, Birds of Prey, the latter Terminator films, Mulan) has started to slowly show writers that maybe there is a reason why people hated Jesus!Burnham apart from being dirty, dirty sexists. I'll say it before and i'll say it again: successful shows do not get rebooted, and season 3 of STD is a reboot of the show in all but name.

[Asvarduil]

I'll say it before and i'll say it again: successful shows do not get rebooted, and season 3 of STD is a reboot of the show in all but name.

First: In bold, I think you've got a temporal paradox there. I won't tell the 32nd century Federation if you don't!

Second: By that logic, that means Star Trek: TOS wasn't successful, as it got rebooted.

[CharlesPhipps]

Successful shows do not get rebooted and DISCO is not a successful show despite getting a fourth season, spin-offs, and being the flagship of their streaming service.

That's the argument here?

Basically, to loop this back to Discovery, I think that that several high profile failures in recent years of these films led by these perfect female characters (Ghostbusters, Charlie's Angels, Birds of Prey, the latter Terminator films, Mulan) has started to slowly show writers that maybe there is a reason why people hated Jesus!Burnham apart from being dirty, dirty sexists. I'll say it before and i'll say it again: successful shows do not get rebooted, and season 3 of STD is a reboot of the show in all but name.

Birds of Prey was awesome and you take that back.

[Link8909]

Yeah, I think that Discovery in general has made a reasonably bold move: discussing the disunity in the former Federation. The plot point that SB-19 was "the final straw" was interesting; clearly a number of member worlds were displeased with the things the Federation was doing before its fall, and Nevar was just one planet that had issues.

Of course, we've seen other planets like Earth and Trill that didn't appear to have misgivings about a return of the Federation. I feel like that's an opportunity for the worldbuilding in S3 DISCO, and a chance for the Federation to learn from its mistakes.

Agreed, I think it's great that the writers are truly taking advantage of the new setting in season three and really shake up the status quo of the galaxy, things like Earth leaving the Federation was great as it detached the ideals of the Federation from humanity and making them universal beliefs, and seeing the unification of the Vulcans and Romulans is fantastic, not only showing that Spock's mission wasn't in vain, but showing that long time enemies can make peace with each other and work together, which feels simpler to when The Next Generation began with the reveal that Klingons were no longer the enemy of the Federation, even have one on the new Enterprise.

To be fair, "Science Commando Burnham" simply has a better ring than "Executive Assistant Commando Burnham".

Quite true.

[clearspira]

Successful shows do not get rebooted and DISCO is not a successful show despite getting a fourth season, spin-offs, and being the flagship of their streaming service.

That's the argument here?

Basically, to loop this back to Discovery, I think that that several high profile failures in recent years of these films led by these perfect female characters (Ghostbusters, Charlie's Angels, Birds of Prey, the latter Terminator films, Mulan) has started to slowly show writers that maybe there is a reason why people hated Jesus!Burnham apart from being dirty, dirty sexists. I'll say it before and i'll say it again: successful shows do not get rebooted, and season 3 of STD is a reboot of the show in all but name.

Birds of Prey was awesome and you take that back.

Ent got four seasons and was so successful it... ended the franchise for a decade until it was restarted with a reboot.

Birds of Prey failed financially. And it managed that by going full feminist by doing such brainy moves as telling guys (who make up the bulk of the market for this genre) that they are sexist pigs if they like a bit of ass.